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Post by Lumpy on Oct 3, 2015 20:28:57 GMT -5
my goodness. Cheeseman you bring up many great points in your brick walls of posts, but you're being so harsh. A lot of the staff, it isn't really their fault some things aren't working properly, especially since R4Z0R cant really be blamed for being unavailable. Putting blanket insults on the whole team really isn't going to help :/ I think if there's any one to be done its this: the forum needs a 2nd head admin to prevent another crazy thing like this from happening again. If one of them isn't available for some exotic reason, the other one will be. And as Viprin said, many forum staff aren't even active. Even if they are trustworthy people its more important that they are willing to do their job in a pinch. There are plenty of more active, trustworthy enough people on the forum imo... I mean when is the last time you saw Tygresek make a post? Or Shocksidian? I have nothing against them but they're just not here often enough.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2015 20:33:50 GMT -5
I still need to get the bigger story, are we talking about the level judge moderating or just moderating in general? Either way, I do agree what pretty much everyone is saying. We do need more moderators to run this forum, that's probably more important than moderators running a sub-board. Also, If you ever want to remove me as a moderator from the sub-board due to my inactivity there and replace me with someone more engaged to level reviewing, feel free. I only rate around 2 levels a day, if not less. And I can tell that I'm not doing as good reviewing as many others I've seen. you'd better be joking, more moderators = chances of brainless mod go higher = more likely to ban people for no reason / just dumb. i'd rather stick with the actual staff member amount than recruit brainless mods with 0 experience neither knowledge, not insulting anybody.
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Post by Cheeseman on Oct 3, 2015 20:45:59 GMT -5
Lumpy, you make very valid points here, including about myself. I was being intentionally harsh earlier. I wouldn't exact define it myself as being over-the-top or rude, that's only going to upset people, but sometimes being somewhat harsh is what gets things done. Originally I was rather, ill-informed on what was actually happening, and I did mention that perhaps everything I was saying was wrong, which, in the event of that being the case, would have made everything I said invalid and we could move on from there. The slight harshness, personally makes sense. If you are going to be a moderator, you do your job as a moderator, not a half job. Now I understand more of the situation, it won't continue being like that. In fact, I feel rather sorry for the majority of the staff now, and if anything I should be acting more harshly towards those who organised the massive change. A second head admin sounds like a great idea, too. Obviously, the slim chance of both of them becoming inactive during a long period of time still exists, but that risk is greatly reduced when there is more than one. Obviously, it isn't known whether this is actually possible with the tools that are offered, but hopefully it can. We definitely need to sort out the staff too. You make the point that there are some seriously inactive people (Tygresek posted yesterday on a thread in the level suggestions board and moved it, but that's not the point), and there is no point having inactive moderators and administrators. Viprin's situation is pretty much the same as well. Both him and I don't understand why he is an administrator; it makes no sense for him to be one. EDIT: @rikka, it is most likely more moderators would be needed in order to make up for those that are inactive. Of course you are going to run into the risk of recruiting someone who literally has no clue how to do the job properly, but if things are discussed properly amongst all of the active staff and you choose people who at least seem to be trustworthy, even better if they have proven themself to be trustworthy, then that risk is greatly reduced. Something has got be done eventually, sooner rather than later. On top of this, in the event that someone complete idiot is chosen to become moderator because something was overlooked or something changed in this person because they had just been given extra "power", they can be kicked from the staff as easily as they were added and I am positive than bans can be lifted. The damage can be erased/reversed, I am sure.
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Post by Cinereal on Oct 3, 2015 20:55:19 GMT -5
I still need to get the bigger story, are we talking about the level judge moderating or just moderating in general? Either way, I do agree what pretty much everyone is saying. We do need more moderators to run this forum, that's probably more important than moderators running a sub-board. Also, If you ever want to remove me as a moderator from the sub-board due to my inactivity there and replace me with someone more engaged to level reviewing, feel free. I only rate around 2 levels a day, if not less. And I can tell that I'm not doing as good reviewing as many others I've seen. you'd better be joking, more moderators = chances of brainless mod go higher = more likely to ban people for no reason / just dumb. i'd rather stick with the actual staff member amount than recruit brainless mods with 0 experience neither knowledge, not insulting anybody. That was my mistake writing that, I meant to say that we need more moderators active, helpful in the forums and maybe replace moderators if that choice will ever strike. I'm not saying that what we have now aren't helpful, I just feel like they're concentrating on things other than this forum, and I obviously wouldn't blame them, but if we're having moderator issues, then someone's got to pull a move to sort this whole situation out
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2015 21:00:29 GMT -5
Lumpy, you make very valid points here, including about myself. I was being intentionally harsh earlier. I wouldn't exact define it myself as being over-the-top or rude, that's only going to upset people, but sometimes being somewhat harsh is what gets things done. Originally I was rather, ill-informed on what was actually happening, and I did mention that perhaps everything I was saying was wrong, which, in the event of that being the case, would have made everything I said invalid and we could move on from there. The slight harshness, personally makes sense. If you are going to be a moderator, you do your job as a moderator, not a half job. Now I understand more of the situation, it won't continue being like that. In fact, I feel rather sorry for the majority of the staff now, and if anything I should be acting more harshly towards those who organised the massive change. A second head admin sounds like a great idea, too. Obviously, the slim chance of both of them becoming inactive during a long period of time still exists, but that risk is greatly reduced when there is more than one. Obviously, it isn't known whether this is actually possible with the tools that are offered, but hopefully it can. We definitely need to sort out the staff too. You make the point that there are some seriously inactive people (Tygresek posted yesterday on a thread in the level suggestions board and moved it, but that's not the point), and there is no point having inactive moderators and administrators. Viprin's situation is pretty much the same as well. Both him and I don't understand why he is an administrator; it makes no sense for him to be one. EDIT: @rikka, it is most likely more moderators would be needed in order to make up for those that are inactive. Of course you are going to run into the risk of recruiting someone who literally has no clue how to do the job properly, but if things are discussed properly amongst all of the active staff and you choose people who at least seem to be trustworthy, even better if they have proven themself to be trustworthy, then that risk is greatly reduced. Something has got be done eventually, sooner rather than later. On top of this, in the event that someone complete idiot is chosen to become moderator because something was overlooked or something changed in this person because they had just been given extra "power", they can be kicked from the staff as easily as they were added and I am positive than bans can be lifted. The damage can be erased/reversed, I am sure. 1.- 50 mods aren't good if all of them are from a single continent, the more covered continents and timezones, the more order there is due to at least 1 staff being online. 2.- staff can be kicked *cough* me *cough*, bans can be lifted, i completely agree with that as long as someone is faster than the idiot, to my knowledge mods can...well.....ban the entire forum members in a few minutes except the staff itself.
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Post by Jumpyhead on Oct 3, 2015 22:33:51 GMT -5
Additionally I'd like to point out I won't be reviewing levels until we sort out a proper system...otherwise I'm just wasting my time. Cheeseman dont tell me I haven't been reviewing. I've reviewed much more than you. I am just taking a break until this system gets fixed cuz again... im not gonna waste my time!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 5:14:24 GMT -5
Additionally I'd like to point out I won't be reviewing levels until we sort out a proper system...otherwise I'm just wasting my time. Cheeseman dont tell me I haven't been reviewing. I've reviewed much more than you. I am just taking a break until this system gets fixed cuz again... im not gonna waste my time!you wouldnt waste ur time if you were actually tagging active mods in ur reviewsAnd now stop saying we can't run a forum only because we don't rate peoples levels. This forums always worked more or less well, we've been managing reported posts, deleting thread that were inappropriate, warning members, writing pms, etc. And now, only because we are not judging levels the way u want us to, we're bad staff? before we got mega's new system, level's weren't noticed at all. And I simply don't have the freaking time to judge 3428790 levels a day. There is something called school in germany, and that thing called school takes up quite a bit of time when u're in 10th grade -.-
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Post by WillFlame on Oct 4, 2015 6:56:33 GMT -5
Additionally I'd like to point out I won't be reviewing levels until we sort out a proper system...otherwise I'm just wasting my time. Cheeseman dont tell me I haven't been reviewing. I've reviewed much more than you. I am just taking a break until this system gets fixed cuz again... im not gonna waste my time!you wouldnt waste ur time if you were actually tagging active mods in ur reviewsAnd now stop saying we can't run a forum only because we don't rate peoples levels. This forums always worked more or less well, we've been managing reported posts, deleting thread that were inappropriate, warning members, writing pms, etc. And now, only because we are not judging levels the way u want us to, we're bad staff? before we got mega's new system, level's weren't noticed at all. And I simply don't have the freaking time to judge 3428790 levels a day. There is something called school in germany, and that thing called school takes up quite a bit of time when u're in 10th grade -.- Who should I tag in my level reviews, then? I'll review as long as I know someone's looking at them. (EDIT: Tagged @stardust1971, for a start.) The fact that some moderators don't have the time to do everything means that there should either be more moderators, or the inactive ones need to become more active. Splitting them across timezones (like zeCookie said) would be effective as well, so we don't get all of them on from the US or something at the same time. Lumpy's suggestion of a 2nd head admin would probably work better too, since R4ZOR either cannot do anything or doesn't have the time to, at least for now. The mods are doing fine running this forum, but the fact that most of them aren't paying much attention to the Level Suggestions Board either means it's lower on their priority list, or perhaps they don't care about it at all. Also, how can we make sure levels at the back of the list are reviewed? One solution is to review all the levels, so there's no such thing as a "back". The other solution is to review starting from the back. EDIT: Overflowing into our fifth page of Level Suggestions!
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Post by ~Pear~ on Oct 4, 2015 8:08:50 GMT -5
Well, to me the more than half of the mods come on like a once a week o r something. also, I'm not going to review either until this is fixed.
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Post by Cheeseman on Oct 4, 2015 8:44:34 GMT -5
@rikka, those a very good points indeed. I wouldn't want all the moderators to be from the same or similar geographical location, and I 100% agree that, in the event of adding more moderators, people from different timezones would be needed. I can also completely understand your concern about some moron being added to the staff, but like I stated before, the risks are greatly reduced is everything is discussed properly and people that have proven to be trustworthy are chosen. The same risk was there when the forum was created and people were chosen to be moderators, and that risk is always going to be there, no matter what the forum, no matter what the time. If you add moderators, there will always be that risk and there always has been. More moderators will eventually be needed, personally I think sooner rather than later, and the risk of that happening will be there. It's just the way it is. Jumpyhead I would just like to make something very clear. It was not my intention to say that you didn't review, the point I was trying to make is that you haven't been reviewing much recently, and that is why I was a bit annoyed by the fact you were lashing out on the mods for not doing their job, which, to be honest, they are, when you had decided to stop doing your job yourself. Like a moderator, no matter what the situation, it is your job to judge levels. And your reason for not judging is, as has just been indicated, not particularly valid. I've been tagging moderators on levels I believed needed recognition, and surprisingly enough they have been moved and I haven't been ignored. You weren't being ignored, you simply weren't creating sufficient attention in order for things to get moved. Yes, you could say that the moderators could check for themselves, but as has been discovered, serious changes are needed in the entire staff system and level judgement system, so for the time being that is your best bet. It's behaviour like that which ends up upsetting the staff and meaning they end up not trusting you and not particularly liking you, and I can clearly see that now. It's your job to judge levels as much as it is a moderators job to make sure everything is running smoothly on the forum. You can't just start blaming others and saying "I'm not going to waste my time", because any moderator could say that at any moment and do exactly what you are doing. I can get away with not reviewing, because it isn't my duty. But here I am, without even being set the task, continuing to review levels, tagging moderators where needed and finding that everything is getting moved where it is deemed correct.
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Post by Drakaglin on Oct 4, 2015 10:51:59 GMT -5
I hope you realize that despite the fact that I am active on the forum, no one really tags me in anything. So if it looks like I'm being useless, it's because no one really needs me at the moment. However, in those rare occasions where I am tagged, I try to get the job done as fast as possible. Also, what may be okay to you guys might not be okay with the staff. Behind the scenes, we usually discuss whether this is okay, whether we should make these changes, etc. Admins only have so much time to take care of your needs, even though they try to be as active as they can. Maybe some people overlook this, but I have a life outside of the forum. This includes school and sports, and other activities that keep me off the computer. There is also the time zone problem, so we can't be online 24/7. It may not seem like this, but our jobs are probably harder than it looks.
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Post by QJrocks on Oct 4, 2015 11:30:43 GMT -5
I've been looking into this a bit more, mainly the activity of moderators and administrators, as well as some level judges, and I can only say that I am appalled by the ignorance of the vast majority of them. One thing a few have already noticed is the very little attention and time megaman is giving to this system of "tag my name and I'll move threads". I have seen countless people tagging his name and only a very small fraction of them either get and official review or moved into another sub-forum. This isn't the biggest of issues, not by far. In fact, in comparison to what some others are doing, I am glad that megaman is actually keeping his promise (somewhat) of dealing with posts where his name has been tagged. The biggest issue is what the moderators are doing. The vast majority of them are active, but only seem to be paying attention to the bits outside of the beating heart of this forum, which, yet again, brings me back to the original point I was making. It requires extreme levels of pure idiocy to bring up a system that staff are not going to be paying any attention to whatsoever. It's great that you are posting, engaging with community and moderating where necessary, but the part of the forum that requires the most attention and moderation is being almost completely ignored. We shouldn't be running into pages of level suggestions, a new level is posted every couple of hours or so, and I know I am capable of reviewing several levels every hour, and when you multiply this by the huge number of moderators and level judges it just shows how little attention is being given to it. First off, I wouldn't necessarily say that level requests aren't "the beating heart of the forum". Personally, I'd give that title to General Discussion. Another thing I'd like to point out is that the mods generally have different jobs. I move threads in level suggestions when tagged, but other that that I usually stick to General Discussion and Community Suggestions. So, you're saying that the staff are lazy, and then saying that our activity is everywhere? Also, see above comment. 1) Well then, explain how we should do our job properly. 2) As far as I know, there hasn't been internal trust issues in a while 3) I can't really help you out here, because you're being very vague. Saying that we aren't doing our job properly and demanding a fix doesn't help any. Tell us what we are doing wrong. Yes, the Level Suggestions stuff does need more love, but you can't expect every mod to be on 24/7 doing things. That's a bold claim, saying that the staff is ignorant. I think the crutch of your argument here is that mods should all be level judges. Just because mods don't review levels doesn't mean that mods are ignorant. Why do you think we have level judges? The staff have people called "level judges" who are supposed to do the reviews. We just move the threads when asked. This is a case of expecting the mods to do everything. Yes, people can write their own reviews, but we generally expect the judges to judge levels, like you'd expect a moderator to moderate a forum. Also, keep in mind that people can write their own reviews. If writing a review is as easy as you make it seem, then you can surely write your own. Again, I don't really think that the center of the forum is Level Suggestions, but that can be debated later. You need to understand that (as far as I know) it's not the job of the mods to review levels. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that the level judges should review the levels. Personally, I'd think that you might make for a good level judge. You seem really keen to support your beating heart of the forum, and if the job is as easy as you make it look, then you should have no problem getting the levels reviewed. I'm sorry if I missed something important in your argument or if I'm missing something in general. I don't know anything about megaman's system or if there are any problems there, but for now I think I've said all I wanted to say.
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Post by Jumpyhead on Oct 4, 2015 12:40:25 GMT -5
Additionally I'd like to point out I won't be reviewing levels until we sort out a proper system...otherwise I'm just wasting my time. Cheeseman dont tell me I haven't been reviewing. I've reviewed much more than you. I am just taking a break until this system gets fixed cuz again... im not gonna waste my time!you wouldnt waste ur time if you were actually tagging active mods in ur reviewsAnd now stop saying we can't run a forum only because we don't rate peoples levels. This forums always worked more or less well, we've been managing reported posts, deleting thread that were inappropriate, warning members, writing pms, etc. And now, only because we are not judging levels the way u want us to, we're bad staff? before we got mega's new system, level's weren't noticed at all. And I simply don't have the freaking time to judge 3428790 levels a day. There is something called school in germany, and that thing called school takes up quite a bit of time when u're in 10th grade -.- Woah stardust.. When did I say you were bad staff? Why are you getting mad at me? Last time I checked cheese man was taking the effort to point out your flaws. Also, I can't believe your saying I haven't tagged active staff because are megaman9 and qjrocks and ryanab inactive?
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Post by Jumpyhead on Oct 4, 2015 12:50:44 GMT -5
@rikka, those a very good points indeed. I wouldn't want all the moderators to be from the same or similar geographical location, and I 100% agree that, in the event of adding more moderators, people from different timezones would be needed. I can also completely understand your concern about some moron being added to the staff, but like I stated before, the risks are greatly reduced is everything is discussed properly and people that have proven to be trustworthy are chosen. The same risk was there when the forum was created and people were chosen to be moderators, and that risk is always going to be there, no matter what the forum, no matter what the time. If you add moderators, there will always be that risk and there always has been. More moderators will eventually be needed, personally I think sooner rather than later, and the risk of that happening will be there. It's just the way it is. Jumpyhead I would just like to make something very clear. It was not my intention to say that you didn't review, the point I was trying to make is that you haven't been reviewing much recently, and that is why I was a bit annoyed by the fact you were lashing out on the mods for not doing their job, which, to be honest, they are, when you had decided to stop doing your job yourself. Like a moderator, no matter what the situation, it is your job to judge levels. And your reason for not judging is, as has just been indicated, not particularly valid. I've been tagging moderators on levels I believed needed recognition, and surprisingly enough they have been moved and I haven't been ignored. You weren't being ignored, you simply weren't creating sufficient attention in order for things to get moved. Yes, you could say that the moderators could check for themselves, but as has been discovered, serious changes are needed in the entire staff system and level judgement system, so for the time being that is your best bet. It's behaviour like that which ends up upsetting the staff and meaning they end up not trusting you and not particularly liking you, and I can clearly see that now. It's your job to judge levels as much as it is a moderators job to make sure everything is running smoothly on the forum. You can't just start blaming others and saying "I'm not going to waste my time", because any moderator could say that at any moment and do exactly what you are doing. I can get away with not reviewing, because it isn't my duty. But here I am, without even being set the task, continuing to review levels, tagging moderators where needed and finding that everything is getting moved where it is deemed correct. You know what? I was never asked if I wanted to be a judge! I also have personal things to do, it's just not realistic to have 2-3 people judge 20 levels a day! I judge levels on my own free time, which is limited. Don't expect me to judge levels as a duty? I wasn't asked and I did it just to help around. But now I'm getting bored of reviewing and the system. Don't regard me as lazy, I'm busy too and I just don't feel compelled anymore
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Post by Cheeseman on Oct 4, 2015 14:05:14 GMT -5
I hope you realize that despite the fact that I am active on the forum, no one really tags me in anything. So if it looks like I'm being useless, it's because no one really needs me at the moment. However, in those rare occasions where I am tagged, I try to get the job done as fast as possible. Also, what may be okay to you guys might not be okay with the staff. Behind the scenes, we usually discuss whether this is okay, whether we should make these changes, etc. Admins only have so much time to take care of your needs, even though they try to be as active as they can. Maybe some people overlook this, but I have a life outside of the forum. This includes school and sports, and other activities that keep me off the computer. There is also the time zone problem, so we can't be online 24/7. It may not seem like this, but our jobs are probably harder than it looks. That last paragraph I couldn't agree with more. I have said it once already; I don't expect moderators to put their real, personal lives before moderating the forum. Never in a million years would I expect somebody to do that. What I don't quite get is what you are saying before that. Do you seriously believe that you need to be tagged in something in order to for you to check things. I can understand it if somebody wanted to tag you or whatever other mod in order for you to get round to dealing with someting quicker, but there's the "report post" button for that, and I am most certain that you have full access to all of the reports and are more than capable of dealing with them. As a moderator you ought to be scanning through everything and checking for yourself to see if things are in order, you shouldn't need to be tagged in anything, unless someone specifically asks you. As for the discussions, the main topic of this all is the fact that things are seriously wrong with the level judging system, and it has been made clear to me as to how poorly it was discussed. You are probably quite right in saying that things are discussed among you as I have no idea what you are doing behind the scenes, but the whole point of this is that this entire system was not discussed properly at all. I can stress enough how inappropriate it was to make such a radical change to the forum without notifying and discussing it with everybody rather than the select few that are involved with it. Many things, not going to quote them all Since making that post, a lot of things have been brought to light and I understand your system a lot better now. Before I was making assumptions based on what I knew and I have stated that in the event of them being wrong, ignore them. The only reason why I believe that the "Level Suggestions" section, or better still, the levels board as a whole, is the beating heart of the forum is simply because such a radical change was made to the forum in order to implement it. Sure, other parts of the forum do get a lot more activity which is why that could easily be considered the same thing. In all honesty, I should rephrase what I said and change it to "it should be the beating heart of the forum". Look in "General Discussion", and although it is realted to Geometry Dash most of the time, it's usually just full of rather daft threads about rather daft, already heavily discussed topics. It also seems to be the centre of where the things closest to flame wars are, because I am yet to see one. It's a "General Discussion" sub-forum, it doesn't really have much meaning. Sure, every forum has one, and in most cases it is the most frequently viewed part of the forum, but I would never consider it the part that's most important. The levels board is a very serious part of the forum that couldn't be any more related to Geometry Dash. But that's just me and that's what I think. What others think is another thing, and I entirely respect their views. Another thing I have begun to think about is about what the moderators are actually supposed to be doing on this forum. You say that you are supposed to deal with "General Discussion" and "Community Suggestions". Many others say similar things, and I am yet to find a single moderator that claims to have some sort of responsibility for dealing with the levels board. There are moderators listed on the sub-forums, but, for example, Jumpyhead is claimed to be a moderator of that area, but he claims he has no power to move things around and actually moderate that part of the forum. Who, in reality, is moderating that part? Nobody claims responsibility whatsoever. And that brings me on to a further point. What does "Global Moderator" mean? Last time I checked it means you moderate the entire forum, not just sections. How can you claim to only have to deal with a small fraction of the forum if you are a "Global Moderator"? Or is this just another name cock-up or job allocation cock-up again, like in the case of Viprin being an admin when he clearly never wanted to be one and shouldn't even be one? It doesn't make sense to have that title if you are not supposed to be dealing with the entire forum? Either the entire staff system was badly thought through or R4ZOR literally had no idea what he was doing. The trust issues are apparent, if not quite as serious as I imagined. In fact, if we are going to be really strict as to what it is, it seems to be more of a level judge-moderator issue which is clearly being expressed between Jumpyhead and you all. It's clear to me that you don't seem to trust each other and don't get along very well. That being said, amongst mods and admins there doesn't seem to be any problems that I am aware of, so I go back on that point. Like I said, things became invalid as I learnt more things. The same applies to the ignorance thing. I think it is worth mentioning that I don't expect moderators to write reviews, but, of course, there's nothing stopping you from doing such a thing, but it wouldn't harm you all to check things for yourselves every now and again (when you have time, that's the most important thing) rather than having to be tagged. It helps massively, I know, and I will always tag when I feel a moderator is needed, but I am not everybody and there is no way that you being tagged is guaranteed, and that's why I feel this "tag me and I'll do stuff" thing just isn't ideal. If that's what you really want, then the point needs to made to the entire community that if you want something done, tagging is the solution (or the report post button if that is what's correct). You know what? I was never asked if I wanted to be a judge! I also have personal things to do, it's just not realistic to have 2-3 people judge 20 levels a day! I judge levels on my own free time, which is limited. Don't expect me to judge levels as a duty? I wasn't asked and I did it just to help around. But now I'm getting bored of reviewing and the system. Don't regard me as lazy, I'm busy too and I just don't feel compelled anymore Wait a minute, first you were saying that you aren't reviewing because the system needs revamping, and now you are saying that you aren't reviewing because you are busy and aren't interested anymore. Which one is it? That being said though, if you were just simply made judge before discussions ensued, then the same thing that I said about Viprin applies to you as well. In all honesty, you are about as much as a level judge as I am. You have virtually no power to move or moderate things, the title is virtually meaningless because nothing was discussed and you were just thrown that title, something that could have been done to anybody. R4ZOR is desperately needed. The level judging system is simply awful, and how the moderation team works needs to be properly clarified. Certain things simply aren't making sense right now.
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