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Post by RFMX on Aug 2, 2020 9:15:43 GMT -5
Recall the discussion in the forums started around 1 month ago. The demon difficulty is not representative enough. There are two flaws in the demon system. 1) Although there is a system dividing the demons into 5 categories, ranging from Easy Demon to Extreme Demon, it is not enough. Levels in the same demon difficulty still has significant difficulty differences, and many people want to know whether a certain demon is harder than another one. Finer division is needed. 2) The Hard Demon categories also include demons that receive insufficient ratings, due to the fact that a default demon rating does not exist in the game.
The two flaws can make players confused and lost in picking the demon to beat. Something needs to be made to stop the comments like 'I beat The Lightning Road, what's next' and 'hey I want an easy medium demon' and 'how hard X is compared to other Easy Demons'.
This is my post on the thread 'Should RobTop add more demon difficulties?' started by Fœ̄zi.
I think the 5-tier demon system can be kept for the sake of simplicity in the game. However, as people including me do want to know which of the demons in the same difficulty are easier or harder, each demon difficulty can be split into 3 tiers, creating a 15-tier system, similar to the demon ladder proposed by people in the forum before. I personally think this is best operated by the community, but not RobTop. This is mainly due to RobTop being too busy (or lazy) but another reason for this is that the community will always be much stronger than a single person. It's actually very simple to set up a tier list. Use about a week to type every rated demon into a spreadsheet (ideally the Google one for simpler collaboration) then make it public and allow others to leave their ratings for each demons by comments or similar mechanisms. Then just average the votes and voila, rating for demons. That is exactly what I am trying to make right now, but I am expanding this to a 25-tier system. I am typing a list of all featured and epic demons on a spreadsheet with the help of gdbrowser.com. (thanks colon) But the thing is I am not really the best player of GD. To be honest, I am not really good AT ALL, beating only 4 demons in my lifetime. (as of writing) If I want to complete this and make the list public, I need some so-called 'reference demons' in each tier to serve as a reference for the difficulty for each tier. (as the name suggests) Therefore I am writing this post here.
I want you guys to list a few demons, preferably more famous and notable ones and tell me what tier do you think. The tiers go from 1 to 25, with Tier 1 being the easiest and Tier 25 being the hardest. Also, Tier 1 to 5 belongs to Easy Demon, Tier 6 to 10 belongs to Medium Demon, and so on.
Do note that if you think the official difficulty is incorrect, you can rate a demon with a tier that is out of the range. For example, you think X is too hard as an Easy Demon, you can rate it as Tier 6 or 7, or even Tier 12 if you think it should be a Hard Demon.
This will be beneficial in creating a framework of the tiers so that people can rate demons easier. I know giving an example for every tier can be daunting. (that's 25 demons spreading across the difficulty spectrum after all) So, if you wish, you can pick a few tiers instead of all of them. However, please skim through other people's posts and pick tiers that do not have a demon associated to it yet. This way we are less likely to have tiers that are filled with examples and others having nothing. (like everyone is going to get The Lightning Road and The Nightmare into Tier 1, obviously they are Tier 1, idiot)
Thanks for reading so far, and I hope we can gather information to create an useful resource for the community.
TLDR read the bold and underlined text
edit The list is never enough, please add more and just add more!  |
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Post by Bagley on Aug 2, 2020 9:51:17 GMT -5
This seems like a pretty big project, and I'd love to help with it. One question though, why are we only looking at featured and epic levels? They comprise 3097 out of the 3395 total demons on the server, so it wouldn't be that much more work to do all of them. Plus, you're excluding a lot of classic levels like Theory of Skrillex, Ultra Paracosm, Sonic Wave, Blue Hell, and others.
Anyway, we need to organize the voting in such a way that we can see who voted for what. This could a problem because we want the voter to have beaten or made progress on the level in question, and the last thing we want is for a bunch of noobs to vote Bloodbath into Tier 25 or other nonsense like that.
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Post by mds62 on Aug 2, 2020 10:46:45 GMT -5
My hardest demon is deadlocked. So I maybe wrong in some of these placements. Anyways, this is my opinion TIER 1(non demon levels): TN, TLR, demon jumper, platinum adventure TIER 2(flaming insane/very easy demons): crescendo, lights and thunder, xstep V2, electroman adven v2 TIER 3(lower easy demons): , insomnia, impact X, Darnocdynamix,
TIER 4(mid-easy demons):clubstep, TOE2, speed of light, cluttrfunk V2
TIER 5(higher easy demons): X, geometric dimensions, death moon
TIER 6(easy medium demons): decode
TIER 7(lower medium demons): deadlocked, fire level
...
TIER 23: bloodbath(I am not a noob) , innards
...
TIER 25: any level harder than sonic wave maybe |
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[ - ]
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Favorite Level: Fast as Lightning
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Post by [ - ] on Aug 2, 2020 10:49:36 GMT -5
got this idea from other games (so it might not fit as much in this context) but what if you could split the level difficulty into several categories (such as timings, memory, spam, ?????) and then vote on each separately, so searching for the right level (for improvement) would be easier and would probably make the difficulty rating more accurate because iirc levels can be difficult because of many different things
or would this just make it a bigger hassle than it already is going to be?
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thanosisugly
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Post by thanosisugly on Aug 2, 2020 11:29:06 GMT -5
If you mean people put ratings directly into the spreadsheet, that's a very messy idea. Just set up a Google Forums quiz and then take the ratings from there and put them into a spreadsheet.
Some tiers to help myself sort demons when typing this
Easy Demon: 1-5
Medium Demon: 6-10
Hard Demon: 11-15
Here are my ratings for the demons I've beaten:
The Realistic Tier 12
Zafari (With Coins) Tier 10
Zafari (Without Coins) Tier 8
Gear III Tier 7
Paracosm Circles Tier 7
FingerDash v2 Tier 7
Crunchy Apple Tier 8
Trump Cricles Tier 6
Decode Tier 6
Hey rob rate this Tier 3
Death Moon Tier 3
Impact X Tier 4
X Tier 2
Laser Room Tier 2
Wild West Tier 3
Demon Park Tier 3
Speed Racer Tier 2
Clutterfunk V2 Tier 4
Ystep Tier 2
Demon Mixed Tier 1
Xstep V2 Tier 2
The Lightning Road Tier 1
Buried Angel Tier 3
The Nightmare Tier 1
Platinum Adventure Tier 1
Tried really hard to be unbiased when making this list, as I had a personally tough time with Zafari, Crunchy Apple, Gear III, and Trump Circles, and I had a easy time with Buried Angel, DeCode, and Clutterfunk V2.
I really support this idea. Let me know if you need any help. I'm not very good at the game either as you can see my hardest is The Realistic. Do you plan to try to get this implemented in the game, or is it going to be an online system, and/or added onto gdbrowser.com? Either way, this is very cool. You could definitely try to get someone's opinion like Aeon Air's or Mulpan's to get a massive boost for reference demons. Also, I'm assuming this is a typo, but are you only doing Featured and Epic levels? There are hardly any non-featured/epic level, so I wouldn't think it'd be too hard to add in.
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Post by mds62 on Aug 2, 2020 12:12:35 GMT -5
Impact X is quite easy tbh.
Noway harder than death moon
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Post by Bagley on Aug 2, 2020 15:01:44 GMT -5
A Google form is a bad idea because:
1. we need to see who voted for what, see my original post
2. you probably can't put that many questions in a single quiz
3. people might not want to vote for every single demon at once, and they can't submit the quiz and come back to it later because of IP duplication
3. if a new demon is released, that obviously screws everything up
A spreadsheet would be slightly better (demon names in first column, player names on top row), since players can fill it out as they please, and new rows can always be added for new levels. However, as far as I know, there's no way to allow someone to only edit a single column, which would be necessary to keep anybody from changing other players' votes.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2020 17:14:58 GMT -5
Here are four examples per tier:
--Easy demons--
Tier 1: Demon Mixed, Impact X, The Lightning Road, yStep
Tier 2: Crescendo, Metal Crusher, Speed of Light, Ultra Paracosm
Tier 3: Clubstep, Demon Park, Insomnia, Theory of Everything 2
Tier 4: Buried Angel, Death Moon, DeCode, Final Stage
Tier 5: Deadlocked, Electrodynamix v2, Problematic, Ultimate Circles
--Medium demons--
Tier 6: Golden Haze, Shrill Hallway, Sidestep, System Split
Tier 7: Aqueous, Figures, Insert Coin, Mechanical Showdown
Tier 8: Clubstep v2, Ditched Machine, Paracosm Circles, Theory of Skrillex
Tier 9: HeLL, Hexagon Force v2, Malware, Takeoff
Tier 10: Dance Massacre, Death Step, Instant Reaction, Lost Legends
--Hard demons--
Tier 11: Deadly ClubStep, Jajagarasu, Nine Circles, ToE II v2
Tier 12: Breakthrough, Crimson Flare, Jawbreaker, Neon Overdrive
Tier 13: Fusion, Lightwave, Plasma Pulse, Rebellion
Tier 14: Infrared, Obscurum, The Four Elements, Windy Landscape
Tier 15: Abandoned Machine, Crying Souls, FuryDynamix, Stalemate
--Insane demons--
Tier 16: Acropolis, Firewall, Infernity, Supersonic
Tier 17: Catastrophic, Pyromaniac, Sequence, Ultrasonic
Tier 18: Crimson Clutter, Lunatic Doom Machine, Necropolis, Ultraviolet
Tier 19: Creeper Force, Dark RainBow Rebirth, Galatic Fragility, ICE Carbon Diablo X
Tier 20: Cataclysm, Falling Up, Photovoltaic, The Ultimate Phase
--Extreme demons--
Tier 21: A Bizarre Phantasm, Conical Depression, Plasma Pulse III, Red World Rebirth
Tier 22: Bloodbath, Mystic, Phobos, Subsonic
Tier 23: Artificial Ascent, Black Blizzard, Killbot, Quantum Processing
Tier 24: Erebus, Molten Gear, Sonic Wave, Yatagarasu
Tier 25: Bloodlust, Kowareta, Plasma Pulse Finale, Renevant
I hope this helps. |
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Favorite Level: Stalemate by Nox
Hardest Demon: Necropolis by iiiNeptuneiii
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Post by Swifter on Aug 2, 2020 18:49:52 GMT -5
This’ll be a long post, I’m giving you all my demons here+ some I have progress on:
Tier 1: The Lightning Road, The Nightmare, Demon Mixed, Demon Step
Tier 2: Theory of Everything 2, Clubstep, Invisible Clubstep, Platinum Adventure, Hyperflux, Infinite Circles, Impulse, Lights and Thunder, Insane Club, Space Club, WeoTheory (with secret way), Crazy (old medium demon), Demon Jumper, Space Circles, Demon Forest, Speed Racer, Atlas, Theory of Every v2, Electro Rand, Dorabaedifficult4, Hextec Flow, Super Cycles, Crescendo, Insomnia, Speed of Light, Laser Room
Tier 3: Deadlocked, Uprise (Zenthic), xStep v2, Ultra Paracosm, Retro Circles, Silverize, Impact X, Adust, Proximity, Triple Flask, Endorphin Rush, Electroman Adven v2, Death Moon, Demon Park, Blue Hell, Hahaha Insane Map, yStep, X, Clutterfunk v2, ToE 2 v2
Tier 4: Trump Circles, Chaoz Impact, Dear Nostalgists, Dark Hell, Ultimate Circles
Tier 5: DeCode, Anarchy, Running in the 90s, Fractured Circles
Tier 6: Fear Me, Clubstep v2, The Realistic, Extreme Fantasy
Tier 7: Figures, Invisible Light
Tier 8: Golden Haze
Tier 14: Windy Landscape
Tier 15: Stalemate, SuperSonic
Tier 16: 8o
Tier 17: Acropolis, Right In
Tier 19: Necropolis, Lunatic Doom Machine
Not all of these are famous, but you can pick and choose. All of the non-hard demon+ I have beaten, and I have significant progress on all of the others (including 100% Stalemate and 91% Necropolis)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2020 19:34:29 GMT -5
A few demons I have completed plus some extra
1-The Nightmare, The Lightning Road
2-xStep v2, Speed Racer
3-TOE 2, Clubstep, Insomnia
4-Deadlocked, Problematic, Decode
5-Running in the 90s
6-Sidestep, Zafari, Mechanical Showdown
7-System Split
8-Theory Of Skrillex
9-Hexagon Force v2
10-Fire Temple, ForceDynamix
11-Nine Circles, Jawbreaker
12-Forsaken Neon, Energize
13-Aleph 0, The Caverns
14-Windy Landscape, Castle of Redemption, Two Invisible Eyes, Turbo
15-Supersonic, Stalemate
16-Acropolis, 8o
17-UltraSonic, Poltergeist
18-Crimson Clutter
19-Temple Of Destiny, Spectral Tentation
20-Falling Up, Penombre
21-Hypersonic, Cataclysm, Allegiance
22-Idols, Annihilation Nation, Bloodbath
23-Black Blizzard, Hatred, Bausha Vortex
24-Sonic Wave, Spectrum Cyclone, WOW
25-Arctic Lights, The Yandere, Kowareta
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Post by Dragon on Aug 2, 2020 20:10:55 GMT -5
Pretty neat idea. I'll list a bunch of levels here. I'll just be saying the ones I have recorded for youtube plus a few extras that I beat on pc but didn't record. I'll ignore levels that are random or redundant. Easy Demons SaDrop by Discordy - At most 1
Cydonia by JacobRoso - 4
Lust by iIFrostIi - 2
BLOZ by Dhaner - 1
Starpunk by FerdeFunky - 0 lol
Blitz by Lemons - 5 Medium Demons The Realistic by Softable - 6 or 7
Formidable Guardians by AbstractDark - 8
System Splitter by JaffyTaffy and others - 10
Freshery by Namtar - 7
Reanimation by Terron - 6
Second Science by CoolCreeper - 9
Hippity Hop by GDFrotzn - 9 Gauntlet Demons Sidestep by Chase - 4
Traction by Ferdefunky- 3
Vibration by Schady - 2
Mechanical Showdown by Tongii - 6
HeLL by Serponge - 8
Extinction by haoN - 5
Buried Angel by F3lixsram - 3
Shrill Hallway by Nico99 - 3
Nowise by Darwin - 10
Darkness Keeper by AbstractDark - 9
Adust by F3lixsram - 2
The Behemoth by JacobRoso - 6 Hard Demons Dance Zone by ASonicMen - 11
Ultra Drivers by LazerBlitz - 12
Curse Calling by Minesap - 12
Fairydust by SuperPizzaLuigi - 13
Jawbreaker by ZenthicAlpha - 11 Insane Demons or stuff near it Sparklic Ocean by Koreaqwer - 17 when I beat it. Now that it's been nerfed idk how much lower it would be.
Asymmetry by Woogi and Koreaqwer - 18 or 19
Prismatic by Kolbyyy - On mobile this is about 18 or 19. On PC this could be as low as 15.
Crackdown Draft by Evasium and Waze - 15
Hexagon Force v6 by Noriega - 16
Incipient by Jenkins GD - 21
Impetus by Viprin and more - 16 Hopefully this gives you enough to work with. These levels are to various degrees of fame but it's probably best to include at least the gauntlet ones since those levels are beaten more frequently and consistently due to the rewards associated with beating them. |
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Hardest Demon: xo
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Post by therealpigchefer on Aug 2, 2020 22:23:21 GMT -5
Will this be from a lower refresh rate perspective (mobile, 60Hz, 75Hz) or higher (120Hz+)?
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Post by RFMX on Aug 2, 2020 23:49:19 GMT -5
Firstly, thanks for all the replies above! I think I have a lot to work with now. That said, I think I need some more demons here. The remaining thing to do is to add to the list and type the remaining demons. Demons that are not featured will also probably be added there.
Second, I am sharing the prototype of the spreadsheet! Please click here to see this. It works using the comment function of the Google Spreadsheet. People will leave a comment at the right of the list, so their name can be seen. People can also use a form if they do not want their Google account to be revealed. I plan to make the list as:
Level Name-Creator Name-Song Name-Official Difficulty-Calculated Tier-Calculated Tier in 2 d.p.-Player 1 response-Player 1 nickname-Player 2 response-Player 2 nickname-Player 3 response...
Most of the spreadsheet can still change though, so don't worry about different things like '1-5 reference demons for each tier' and basically the whole How to rate spreadsheet.
Thirdly, I'll answer different questions:
> Splitting level into different categories Yeah, that's nice. However, my major concern is the layout of the spreadsheet. Adding more items can make the list messy and hard to read, which is not really preferable. It is doable, but I'm not sure whether it is readable. It can be considered once we settled the basics of the list, however.
> gdbrowser.com and opinion from other notable players Adding this system into gdbrowser.com is quite of an good idea. I need to contact Colon for the matter, to see if he is interested to help streamline the process. However, the list aims to give a way for the players to search a demon by entering a tier, instead of searching for a tier by entering a demon. This can mean a overhaul of the UI of the website. Plus, I think Colon is trying to mimic the exact layout of GD so I think he would rather keep the website as is instead.
As for the opinion of notable players, I'll try to reach out as many GD players as possible either through Discord, or any other platform that has GD players present. Notable players are not the only demon slayers, and I think normal players can also give valuable advice. Of course, I'll try my best and see if any miracle happens. But if no notable players cares, we can still make it really accurate.
> Monitor refresh rate The list tries to be as hollistic as possible, though monitor refresh rate can play a huge role in the difficulty of the level, especially when we are talking about extreme demons. I'll find a way to implement this into the list. I think I would ask the players to also tell us the refresh rate of their monitors, and add the information into the list. Do note that because each level only occupies one row, informations needs to be arranged horizontally so as to keep the layout preferable for calculations. Because of that, I cannot add too much information or else people are going to have to scroll far to the right to add their ratings.
Thanks guys! |
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Post by Bagley on Aug 3, 2020 2:26:43 GMT -5
Tier 14: Windy Landscape Tier 15: Forest Temple ok but that's wrong |
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[ - ]
Back On Track
BMS!!
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Favorite Level: Fast as Lightning
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Post by [ - ] on Aug 3, 2020 3:38:23 GMT -5
> Splitting level into different categories Yeah, that's nice. However, my major concern is the layout of the spreadsheet. Adding more items can make the list messy and hard to read, which is not really preferable. It is doable, but I'm not sure whether it is readable. It can be considered once we settled the basics of the list, however.
will try to find how to make it more readable also, adding IDs would help
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I think the 5-tier demon system can be kept for the sake of simplicity in the game. However, as people including me do want to know which of the demons in the same difficulty are easier or harder, each demon difficulty can be split into 3 tiers, creating a 15-tier system, similar to the demon ladder proposed by people in the forum before. I personally think this is best operated by the community, but not RobTop. This is mainly due to RobTop being too busy (or lazy) but another reason for this is that the community will always be much stronger than a single person.
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