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Post by Zendayo on Mar 9, 2019 4:12:36 GMT -5
So something that has really been bothering me lately about the state of the game more than anything else are the user created levels. Many people are quick to blame Robtops absolute failure to update the game as the primary reason why as to why the community is in such a decline, but another and much more criminally under talked about issue are the state of levels. Y’know, the thing that brought us all here in the first place.
Now im probably gonna get a lot of backlash from this, but i truly and 100% believe this statement. I believe that the community’s focus on extreme demons has lowered the quality of levels overall.
Now what the fuck does that mean? And how the fuck do those two things correlate?
Well, to answer the first part, I think that since the start of the admiration of extreme demons, more and more people have lost sight to what makes a level good. Many players now just idolize the top players blindly and eat up whatever is claimed to be the hardest level, and god forbid if its not the hardest. Just look at stuff like God Eater or Woodkid or Devil Vortex or even Erebus, levels that are fucking AWFUL overall, but are loved by the community because of their difficulty and who made them (as well as a third reason but ill get into that later). Now a level only has to be harder than whatevers on the top to garner discussion around here, examples including Zodiac and that awful Down Bass extension / remake. Those levels arent interesting visually and arent insteresting gameplay wise besides the fact that they are extremely difficult to beat, but they get attention anyways from channels such as SEA’s. SEA cannot understand what makes a level good, try and find his CC2 results for that (although good luck because i think he took down the video), but that doesnt matter to his braindead fans. They just eat up whatever SEA deems is a good level, which in his eyes are extreme demons. Extreme demons with little to no personality, no creativity, or no passion. SEAs ravid fanbase loves levels that are just there to be good enough, the bare minimum to be good, and this has had its effect on the greater creating community.
The creator community has a very noticae trickle down effect if you look closely enoguh. For example, Goose’s travel level, which was featured for an absurdly long time, seemed to inspire many of the color choices used by many creators nowadays, with strong saturated colors with desaturated bright outlines, and dark blacks speckled here and there throughout the block designs. Adiale’s continuous features with his simple style brought in a slew of imitators, which was considered at one point in this communities lifespan to be the death of creating levels. And now extreme demons, although they have been around for quite a while, have become this newest trend. After recognizing the popularity of levels such as Artificial Ascent, many teams took it upon themselves to make similar levels, colorful, XL, megacollabs. Examples of this are Decepion Dive, Gamma, the revival of the Sonic series etc. But much like Nine Circles levels and simple levels before it, now the trend has become oversaturated, and the trickle down is a lot more destructive.
With many of the “good” creators now focused on making the next new extreme demon, many other creators have come in to take their place. Creators such as Nico99, DanZmen, and others have seemingly perfected the formula for making bland levels, using the same colors and styles, almost every single time. And what isnt done by that style, has been filled with poor modernistic levels that fail to differentiate themselves from eachother or bossfight levels that all look and play the goddamn same, with the player usually in ship mode, having to memorize a static image’s “attack patters”, and following the instructions on a static background.
Now to say that 1.9 and 2.0 didnt have its shit trends would be a falsehood, but back then the good creators stood out from eachother. Funnygame looked nothing like Hinds, who looked nothing like Minesap, who looked nothing like Insendium, who looked nothing like Evasium, who looked nothing like Gboy who looked nothing like Serponge who looked nothing like etc etc etc. In 2.1, we dont have many extremely boundary pushing creators anymore. The most we have is people like JonathanGD or if we’re lucky, a good Knots level. But for the most part, the great creators who had style and finesse are gone, and its because its too easy to get a feature now. The current styles and trends are so easy to make, that anyone can get a creator point. And why try if less effort leads to more reward?
I dont think that there arent good, talented, and creative creators in this community anymore, but its our duty as players to appreciate levels not because they are hard, but to appreciate them because they are good, otherwise this game is going to be deader than dead
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Post by Ezel on Mar 9, 2019 6:14:13 GMT -5
So something that has really been bothering me lately about the state of the game more than anything else are the user created levels. Many people are quick to blame Robtops absolute failure to update the game as the primary reason why as to why the community is in such a decline, but another and much more criminally under talked about issue are the state of levels. Y’know, the thing that brought us all here in the first place. Now im probably gonna get a lot of backlash from this, but i truly and 100% believe this statement. I believe that the community’s focus on extreme demons has lowered the quality of levels overall. Now what the fuck does that mean? And how the fuck do those two things correlate? Well, to answer the first part, I think that since the start of the admiration of extreme demons, more and more people have lost sight to what makes a level good. Many players now just idolize the top players blindly and eat up whatever is claimed to be the hardest level, and god forbid if its not the hardest. Just look at stuff like God Eater or Woodkid or Devil Vortex or even Erebus, levels that are fucking AWFUL overall, but are loved by the community because of their difficulty and who made them (as well as a third reason but ill get into that later). Now a level only has to be harder than whatevers on the top to garner discussion around here, examples including Zodiac and that awful Down Bass extension / remake. Those levels arent interesting visually and arent insteresting gameplay wise besides the fact that they are extremely difficult to beat, but they get attention anyways from channels such as SEA’s. SEA cannot understand what makes a level good, try and find his CC2 results for that (although good luck because i think he took down the video), but that doesnt matter to his braindead fans. They just eat up whatever SEA deems is a good level, which in his eyes are extreme demons. Extreme demons with little to no personality, no creativity, or no passion. SEAs ravid fanbase loves levels that are just there to be good enough, the bare minimum to be good, and this has had its effect on the greater creating community. Actually a lot of people dislike Erebus and Devil Vortex due to their very inconsistent gameplay. Woodkid also gets quite some backlash due to its confusing decoration style. I agree that God Eater is overhyped though. It's great visually but the gameplay isn't very enjoyable and even Knobbelboy himself said he isn't fully satisfied with his level.
The difficulty is something I actually wanted to rant about recently. A lot of people are complaining that their "hardest levels" aren't getting rated but the thing is that RobTop gives low priority to levels that barely anyone will be able to beat. If you're trying to make an extreme demon and you want a decent chance to get it rated, don't make a top 10 level, just try to make an easier extreme demon.
The creator community has a very noticae trickle down effect if you look closely enoguh. For example, Goose’s travel level, which was featured for an absurdly long time, seemed to inspire many of the color choices used by many creators nowadays, with strong saturated colors with desaturated bright outlines, and dark blacks speckled here and there throughout the block designs. Adiale’s continuous features with his simple style brought in a slew of imitators, which was considered at one point in this communities lifespan to be the death of creating levels. And now extreme demons, although they have been around for quite a while, have become this newest trend. After recognizing the popularity of levels such as Artificial Ascent, many teams took it upon themselves to make similar levels, colorful, XL, megacollabs. Examples of this are Decepion Dive, Gamma, the revival of the Sonic series etc. But much like Nine Circles levels and simple levels before it, now the trend has become oversaturated, and the trickle down is a lot more destructive. Most of these "colorful extreme demons" don't get much notice anyways. The only levels that have got a decent amount of downloads were Hypersonic/Subsonic, Deception Dive and Digital Descent. The rest had either an average or low amount of a download/like ratio.With many of the “good” creators now focused on making the next new extreme demon, many other creators have come in to take their place. Creators such as Nico99, DanZmen, and others have seemingly perfected the formula for making bland levels, using the same colors and styles, almost every single time. And what isnt done by that style, has been filled with poor modernistic levels that fail to differentiate themselves from eachother or bossfight levels that all look and play the goddamn same, with the player usually in ship mode, having to memorize a static image’s “attack patters”, and following the instructions on a static background. That's because these people were already well known and their levels get easily noticed because they already have a decent amount of followers. There are still a lot of unnoticed good creators, however the situation in this case has been better since 2.1 came out. Back in 2.0 it was very hard to get noticed, now you can as long as you have some contact with mods.
We have to remember that the game has grown MUCH bigger and there are way more people, so it's harder to distinguish one from another. There are still a lot of creators who have their specific styles, and while some may not be as good as others, The only problem is when people start to "milk" their styles to gain easy creator points. I don't like that, because if you have already a decent amount of creator points, it'd be nice to see something new from time to time.Now to say that 1.9 and 2.0 didnt have its shit trends would be a falsehood, but back then the good creators stood out from eachother. Funnygame looked nothing like Hinds, who looked nothing like Minesap, who looked nothing like Insendium, who looked nothing like Evasium, who looked nothing like Gboy who looked nothing like Serponge who looked nothing like etc etc etc. In 2.1, we dont have many extremely boundary pushing creators anymore. The most we have is people like JonathanGD or if we’re lucky, a good Knots level. But for the most part, the great creators who had style and finesse are gone, and its because its too easy to get a feature now. The current styles and trends are so easy to make, that anyone can get a creator point. And why try if less effort leads to more reward? That's because the community in 1.9 was much smaller, people should stop comparing previous updates to these times as back then there were much less people and when we saw something unique, it was very special for us. Nowadays a lot of creators have already pushed the game to its limits and there's not as much groundbreaking stuff for us. I don't say it's impossible but nowadays the editor is so complicated that in order to impress someone, you either have to make something very complex or something that turns GD completely upside-down. Back in the old days effects were simple and any new mechanic was something suprising for players as it allowed them to use certain mechanics in different ways. Back then making a rainbow effect or "fake parallax" with flashing colors was something out of the world, but now it's not special anymore because the editor allows to do such stuff very easily. So yeah, creating something unique nowadays requires much more time than before because standards are higher and levels have became more complex.
However I do agree that the rating system is flawed. Getting a level rated only is much harder than getting an epic for some reason. For an epic all you need is to make some decent gameplay and good pulses or nice movement. Raising the overall standards isn't the solution though. In order to reward more creative levels, epics should have been a rather uncommon rating that you'd get for something that stands out from the rest, a feature should be for levels that aren't necessarily unique but they're well made and rather high quality. The regular rating would be for any level that has at least somewhat acceptable decoration and gameplay.I dont think that there arent good, talented, and creative creators in this community anymore, but its our duty as players to appreciate levels not because they are hard, but to appreciate them because they are good, otherwise this game is going to be deader than dead That's wrong, there are still creators who can pull off really good or unique levels, but they often get overshadowed by average levels that get daily/weekly or that were made by more popular creators. Levels don't have to be masterpieces to keep the level alive, but I think that good levels should be appreciated more by RobTop. I just find it unfair that levels like A Daydream Journey look amazing and they get RATED only, while Bloodlust for example is epic even though both get far beyond the block limit.Replies in blue. |
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Post by S3rios on Mar 9, 2019 7:47:48 GMT -5
This isn't an unpopular opinion this is just objectively correct information.
I've been saying this shit for years now. I agree with pretty much all of it.
The only thing I'll add is that you left out one of the biggest contributing factors to all of this: the demons list. Part of the reason people care so much about extreme demons is because they're constantly fighting over list placements, which creators deserve to verify which levels, which creators have the most list points, etc. All of this shit contributes to the incredibly toxic culture around extreme demons. People are so bogged down in debating which level is more difficult that they've never stopped to actually consider if a level is good or not. I think the demons list needs serious restructuring so that it rewards player achievement instead of making really difficult levels, but the list mods will never do that because having a total system change is too difficult even if it would be better for the health of the game.
It also doesn't help that they call themselves "official" which makes a lot of people think that they're endorsed by the actual game, but that's a rant that I've already gone into.
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562 posts
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Post by Zendayo on Mar 9, 2019 15:23:22 GMT -5
Actually a lot of people dislike Erebus and Devil Vortex due to their very inconsistent gameplay. Woodkid also gets quite some backlash due to its confusing decoration style. I agree that God Eater is overhyped though. It's great visually but the gameplay isn't very enjoyable and even Knobbelboy himself said he isn't fully satisfied with his level.
The difficulty is something I actually wanted to rant about recently. A lot of people are complaining that their "hardest levels" aren't getting rated but the thing is that RobTop gives low priority to levels that barely anyone will be able to beat. If you're trying to make an extreme demon and you want a decent chance to get it rated, don't make a top 10 level, just try to make an easier extreme demon.
With all the criticism levels like Erebus and Devil Vortex gets, theres just as many people defending the level, because the level is an extreme demon. Dont forget, people now defend levels like Buff This blindly because its hard, and completely ignore the context of said level. Most of these "colorful extreme demons" don't get much notice anyways. The only levels that have got a decent amount of downloads were Hypersonic/Subsonic, Deception Dive and Digital Descent. The rest had either an average or low amount of a download/like ratio. My point is that these Extreme Demon Megacollabs got any traction at all, despite not deserving the attention. Because it shows to smaller creators the styles that get featured, the bare minimum. That's because these people were already well known and their levels get easily noticed because they already have a decent amount of followers. There are still a lot of unnoticed good creators, however the situation in this case has been better since 2.1 came out. Back in 2.0 it was very hard to get noticed, now you can as long as you have some contact with mods.
We have to remember that the game has grown MUCH bigger and there are way more people, so it's harder to distinguish one from another. There are still a lot of creators who have their specific styles, and while some may not be as good as others, The only problem is when people start to "milk" their styles to gain easy creator points. I don't like that, because if you have already a decent amount of creator points, it'd be nice to see something new from time to time. if getting a feature was so easy as knowing a mod, what the fuck why isnt stalemate ii rated yet this is horseshit
And even then its a stretch, DanZmen got a following by consistantly putting out very mediocre levels, and was considered one of the worst creators in the game at early 2.1. His style hasnt really evolved since then, because as you said, he milks his style. And for your second point here, The quantity of creators shouldnt affect the quality of levels. As I later go on to say, there were a shitton of great creators in 1.9 and 2.0, but you could distinguish easily between creators. Now every level looks and plays the same, unless you are one of the various Hinds strains (Vlacc, Shocksidian, Alkali, Cirtrax) or JonathanGD. That's because the community in 1.9 was much smaller, people should stop comparing previous updates to these times as back then there were much less people and when we saw something unique, it was very special for us. Nowadays a lot of creators have already pushed the game to its limits and there's not as much groundbreaking stuff for us. I don't say it's impossible but nowadays the editor is so complicated that in order to impress someone, you either have to make something very complex or something that turns GD completely upside-down. Back in the old days effects were simple and any new mechanic was something suprising for players as it allowed them to use certain mechanics in different ways. Back then making a rainbow effect or "fake parallax" with flashing colors was something out of the world, but now it's not special anymore because the editor allows to do such stuff very easily. So yeah, creating something unique nowadays requires much more time than before because standards are higher and levels have became more complex.
Thats the most pathetic excuse for the lack of effort put into levels nowadays. Levels have only become as complex as the gameplay does, and for the most part, many creators dont try to have very creative gameplay. There is no reason that JonathanGD is the only one innovating and being creative in this community, and its fucking pitiful that you even dared to say that there arent things that havent been explored in this game. Cohesive art levels are something that I love seeing, but are so goddamn rare to the point where I only really rely on WhirL for them. The limitations of 1.9 and 2.0 did force people to be more creative yes, but thats not a fucking excuse to be a lazy sack of shit now. Come on. That's wrong, there are still creators who can pull off really good or unique levels, but they often get overshadowed by average levels that get daily/weekly or that were made by more popular creators. Levels don't have to be masterpieces to keep the level alive, but I think that good levels should be appreciated more by RobTop. I just find it unfair that levels like A Daydream Journey look amazing and they get RATED only, while Bloodlust for example is epic even though both get far beyond the block limit. Reading Comprehension, who needs it anyways? Also is it too much to ask for for a reply to be properly formatted and not someone lazily writing over a fucking quote? Jees |
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Post by KneeVan on Mar 9, 2019 16:27:57 GMT -5
I disagree with a lot that you said. A lot of extreme demons are hated quite a bit. You mention Erebus, Devil Vortex, and of all things Buff This (despite not being extreme but I will use it for my point anyway). Devil Vortex is one of the most hated extremes out there. You can argue all you want that there are the silent people who just stay on the surface of the community who like it, but ultimately all the people who know a thing or two about extreme demons hate the level. Pretty much the same can be said about Erebus but on a smaller scale of hate. Also Buff This was one of the most hated demons of all time no? How can you say people like it for being hard? I have literally never seen a single person defend this level for being good. You also bring up Woodkid and God Eater as objectively bad levels that if anyone likes automatically is only liking it for the fact of it being hard. This is simply ignorant. These levels do have appealing factors and it IS possible for people to just like these levels. God Eater has some amazing art in it and a lot of color variation. To say its an objectively bad level is just wrong. Woodkid also has some appealing factors, such as the intricate block design and the great art in the background Both of these levels also have their fair share of criticism. They aren't just "blindly loved" by all like you would suggest. God Eater has been criticised for being too laggy, having some odd color combinations, unfun gameplay, and being messy in some parts. Woodkid is criticised for the clashing background and foreground resulting in a lot of mess, as well as the art being stolen. These are criticisms of these levels that are pretty common among the community. Also there are still plenty of creators with very distinguishable styles. You have people like Jonathan like you said which I agree makes very creative levels but to say he is the only one being creative is just simply not true. We also have people like Darwin who is very capable of great effect levels like Quantum Variations. There is also Rafer who has made incredible levels like In Silico. All 3 of these creators are capable of making levels that are fantastic and all very unique from each other. You can argue that these are not the majority of levels, but that is because it takes more time to make something creative and unique, and hence will be a smaller % of the total rated levels. I would also argue that generally 2.1 levels are in general of higher quality than the average 1.9 or 2.0 level. It takes a lot of effort to build a feature worthy level, even if those levels are not super unique. It does take editor knowledge and a lot of practice to be able to build a feature worthy level and I think you take for granted the skills necessary to do so. This isn't an unpopular opinion this is just objectively correct information. I've been saying this shit for years now. I agree with pretty much all of it. The only thing I'll add is that you left out one of the biggest contributing factors to all of this: the demons list. Part of the reason people care so much about extreme demons is because they're constantly fighting over list placements, which creators deserve to verify which levels, which creators have the most list points, etc. All of this shit contributes to the incredibly toxic culture around extreme demons. People are so bogged down in debating which level is more difficult that they've never stopped to actually consider if a level is good or not. I think the demons list needs serious restructuring so that it rewards player achievement instead of making really difficult levels, but the list mods will never do that because having a total system change is too difficult even if it would be better for the health of the game. It also doesn't help that they call themselves "official" which makes a lot of people think that they're endorsed by the actual game, but that's a rant that I've already gone into. I feel like you make a bigger deal out of this than it actually is. I would argue that the Demon List is not very toxic. Placements of demons are rarely heated and the only time I can think of recently is the PPF vs BL debate. Almost all of the time it is just discussion trying to provide an accurate representation of the hardest demons in the game. Also when discussing a list ranking the hardest demons, why should they care about the quality of the level? It is supposed to be the hardest demons not the best ones. Also I would argue that the demon list DOES reward player achievement. They have a running stats viewer of people who have managed to get the most amount of points from beating levels within the top 100. Verifying a difficult demon will get your name on the page with the demon thus getting you more attention. |
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Post by Zendayo on Mar 9, 2019 16:40:28 GMT -5
I disagree with a lot that you said. A lot of extreme demons are hated quite a bit. You mention Erebus, Devil Vortex, and of all things Buff This (despite not being extreme but I will use it for my point anyway). Devil Vortex is one of the most hated extremes out there. You can argue all you want that there are the silent people who just stay on the surface of the community who like it, but ultimately all the people who know a thing or two about extreme demons hate the level. Pretty much the same can be said about Erebus but on a smaller scale of hate. Also Buff This was one of the most hated demons of all time no? How can you say people like it for being hard? I have literally never seen a single person defend this level for being good. You also bring up Woodkid and God Eater as objectively bad levels that if anyone likes automatically is only liking it for the fact of it being hard. This is simply ignorant. These levels do have appealing factors and it IS possible for people to just like these levels. God Eater has some amazing art in it and a lot of color variation. To say its an objectively bad level is just wrong. Woodkid also has some appealing factors, such as the intricate block design and the great art in the background Both of these levels also have their fair share of criticism. They aren't just "blindly loved" by all like you would suggest. God Eater has been criticised for being too laggy, having some odd color combinations, unfun gameplay, and being messy in some parts. Woodkid is criticised for the clashing background and foreground resulting in a lot of mess, as well as the art being stolen. These are criticisms of these levels that are pretty common among the community. No matter what we might want to believe, we arent the majority of the community. What we care about isnt what a majority of the community cares about. Just look at SEA's numbers to figure that shit out. I see countless people defending Buff This for being challenging and a joke level. I see countless people defending Devil Vortex for being a fun challenge. God Eater is very unfocused, way too oversaturated, and is way too noisy overall. Woodkid is even more noisy and messy, to the point where its almost impossible to get whats going on. But to many, these factors are overlooked, because they arent actually playing the level. Modern demons have just become a showcase of art and "building skill" without understanding what makes a level fun and good. Because fuck cohesiveness, look at the art! Look at the bossfight!! Look at the CUHRAZZY GAMEPLAY. The spectacle of Extreme demons is what is the problem. I swear, creating now is like a circus, where the tiger is a player trying to jump through the fiery rings of an extreme demon. It doesnt matter if the show is actually good or not, kiddies will flock to the circus regardless. |
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Post by Ezel on Mar 9, 2019 16:41:33 GMT -5
With all the criticism levels like Erebus and Devil Vortex gets, theres just as many people defending the level, because the level is an extreme demon. Dont forget, people now defend levels like Buff This blindly because its hard, and completely ignore the context of said level. People defending Buff This? Could you please type at least 3 names who tried to defend the level? When Buff This was released, the community completely exploded with hatred and disappointment. The only defending was regarding BotC, because while I think he used an opportunity to get CP from a lazy level, people were so desperate to get rid of him that they even were sending death treats. If you call that defending a level then you completely misunderstood the point. My point is that these Extreme Demon Megacollabs got any traction at all, despite not deserving the attention. Because it shows to smaller creators the styles that get featured, the bare minimum. They're getting less traction than a colorful non-demon or just easier demons so I don't see what's your point. I disagree with the majority of them getting epic (or sometimes even featured), but nowadays people don't care about a colorful demon unless someone hyped it by streaming its building progress or it just featuring a bunch of well known creators. if getting a feature was so easy as knowing a mod, what the fuck why isnt stalemate ii rated yet this is horseshit
And even then its a stretch, DanZmen got a following by consistantly putting out very mediocre levels, and was considered one of the worst creators in the game at early 2.1. His style hasnt really evolved since then, because as you said, he milks his style. And for your second point here, The quantity of creators shouldnt affect the quality of levels. As I later go on to say, there were a shitton of great creators in 1.9 and 2.0, but you could distinguish easily between creators. Now every level looks and plays the same, unless you are one of the various Hinds strains (Vlacc, Shocksidian, Alkali, Cirtrax) or JonathanGD. Because it looks like a 2.0 level and you'd have to be extremely lucky to get it rated lol.I didn't see much people saying DanZmeN is one of the worst 2.1 creators. I have seen a lot of people complaining that some of his levels are really bad and that he doesn't change his style very often, but calling him the "worst creator" feels like something based more on your opinion than the community itself. I agree that most of his levels look similar to each other but he's still far from the worst creators. Remember that back in 1.9 people could build literally anything and anything would get rated, even a lazy and empty level made in 10 minutes if you got lucky enough. Don't compare current times to 3 years ago, because standards back then were completely different and levels took less time to build, therefore people could make anything and experiment with anything to get even a mere star rating. Nowadays you have to put actual effort into a level to get it rated - both in creating and "annoying" the crap out of mods to send your level to RobTop. Call a level what you want, but any level has at least a little bit of effort, and while it's a small or big amount, it doesn't necessarily describe the quality of levels. There's still a lot of creators that either keep their oldschool styles or try to find a different one. I agree a bit with gameplay though, as people don't experiment with it as much as they used to earlier. Now people put more effort into visuals which sometimes hinders the playability of the level. Another thing is that if someone tries to do some sort of unusual gameplay, they often get backlash for the gameplay being "annoying" as it often takes a while to get used to it. The thing with unusual gameplay is that opinions will be very mixed - some people will love it, but some will hate them with a burning passion. KrmaL's gameplay is a great example. Thats the most pathetic excuse for the lack of effort put into levels nowadays. Levels have only become as complex as the gameplay does, and for the most part, many creators dont try to have very creative gameplay. There is no reason that JonathanGD is the only one innovating and being creative in this community, and its fucking pitiful that you even dared to say that there arent things that havent been explored in this game. Cohesive art levels are something that I love seeing, but are so goddamn rare to the point where I only really rely on WhirL for them. The limitations of 1.9 and 2.0 did force people to be more creative yes, but thats not a fucking excuse to be a lazy sack of shit now. Come on. Again you assume people don't put any effort just because you dislike a level. Some people may make masterpieces in a few days, while someone might take months to make a trainwreck of a project. Please tell me how often do you check recently rated levels? Sure, the majority of levels are just casual stuff you tend to see often, but assuming that there's barely anyone who's trying to be creative shows that you either didn't pay attention to much levels or you expect everyone to make masterpieces all the time. Nobody should feel forced to make whatever you or someone else wants to see, and that should be the point of creating - make a level for fun and your own enjoyment, not to please everyone in the community. If someone's to blame, it's not the creator for getting features or epics for a level they liked to build. It's the rating system that's flawed, because it doesn't encourage people enough to try out making more creative levels. There's no standards for an epic rating, so it's expected that it will be abused by milking certain styles. If features or epic ratings encouraged people to experiment more, people would either gain CP much slower or they'd be encouraged to try out new stuff. It honestly pisses me off how people refer to older updates when they're using the argument. Stop looking at 1.9 or 2.0 like it was a magic mirror: every update has its good and terrible levels. There are definitely a bunch of great 2.1 levels that were released, it's just that some are being overshadowed or just unnoticed for some reason. I've even seen really good 1.9/2.0 levels that had relatively small amounts of likes and downloads. Reading Comprehension, who needs it anyways? ?? I might have gotten a little further with the topic in this reason, but there was actually a valid comparison between two levels. Both A Daydream Journey and levels like Bloodlust or God Eater are object heavy levels that have a tendency to lag on most devices. What did ADJ get? A rate only, because of lag issues. What did Bloodlust and God Eater get? Epic! Who cares about level performance when it's a very hyped level amirite??? Also is it too much to ask for for a reply to be properly formatted and not someone lazily writing over a fucking quote? Jees Wait, this is a forum post, not an essay? /s |
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Post by KneeVan on Mar 9, 2019 16:53:15 GMT -5
I disagree with a lot that you said. A lot of extreme demons are hated quite a bit. You mention Erebus, Devil Vortex, and of all things Buff This (despite not being extreme but I will use it for my point anyway). Devil Vortex is one of the most hated extremes out there. You can argue all you want that there are the silent people who just stay on the surface of the community who like it, but ultimately all the people who know a thing or two about extreme demons hate the level. Pretty much the same can be said about Erebus but on a smaller scale of hate. Also Buff This was one of the most hated demons of all time no? How can you say people like it for being hard? I have literally never seen a single person defend this level for being good. You also bring up Woodkid and God Eater as objectively bad levels that if anyone likes automatically is only liking it for the fact of it being hard. This is simply ignorant. These levels do have appealing factors and it IS possible for people to just like these levels. God Eater has some amazing art in it and a lot of color variation. To say its an objectively bad level is just wrong. Woodkid also has some appealing factors, such as the intricate block design and the great art in the background Both of these levels also have their fair share of criticism. They aren't just "blindly loved" by all like you would suggest. God Eater has been criticised for being too laggy, having some odd color combinations, unfun gameplay, and being messy in some parts. Woodkid is criticised for the clashing background and foreground resulting in a lot of mess, as well as the art being stolen. These are criticisms of these levels that are pretty common among the community. No matter what we might want to believe, we arent the majority of the community. What we care about isnt what a majority of the community cares about. Just look at SEA's numbers to figure that shit out. I see countless people defending Buff This for being challenging and a joke level. I see countless people defending Devil Vortex for being a fun challenge. God Eater is very unfocused, way too oversaturated, and is way too noisy overall. Woodkid is even more noisy and messy, to the point where its almost impossible to get whats going on. But to many, these factors are overlooked, because they arent actually playing the level. Modern demons have just become a showcase of art and "building skill" without understanding what makes a level fun and good. Because fuck cohesiveness, look at the art! Look at the bossfight!! Look at the CUHRAZZY GAMEPLAY. The spectacle of Extreme demons is what is the problem. I swear, creating now is like a circus, where the tiger is a player trying to jump through the fiery rings of an extreme demon. It doesnt matter if the show is actually good or not, kiddies will flock to the circus regardless. You keep bringing up Sea yet he doesnt even make GD content anymore :thonking: I have a feeling those people "defending buff this" are just people saying it isn't the end of the world that it was rated like people used to make it out to be back when that issue was on fire. It is okay for it to be rated imo (it isn't even featured) as it has some decent decoration. That doesn't mean those people necessarily think its a great level or anything. I still stand by the fact that there are so many people in the community who hate Devil Vortex. My point is that God Eater and Woodkid are not by definition bad levels so you can't just say they only like them for being extreme when they do have appealing aspects to them. For modern demons it appears you missed my point I made in my original post that average levels will make up a majority of levels since levels that are good take longer to make. That is exactly what most featured levels are. Average, and that is completely fine. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 17:03:52 GMT -5
I don’t like how you think people like levels just because they are hard. On my server when a new extreme demon is rated and brought up, it is every time that we talk about the decoration for how much we like the level. We criticized the hell out of Dark Flare, a supposed top 20 level. Step to Hell, in the top 15, is hated among the playerbase for being bland, boring and having some of the absolute worst gameplay on the entire list. And people liked God Eater for how it looked. Personally I don’t like God Eater and I don’t think it looks the best but this is a subjective thing we are talking about. It appeals to some people and it looks like trash to others. Barely anybody cared where it would place on the list. What mattered to people is that it looked great to them.
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Post by Gingie on Mar 9, 2019 21:34:04 GMT -5
Finally someone speaks the fuck up
EDIT: Firm believer of levels being more fun than looking good. I'd rather have fun playing a dogshit looking level than no fun with a pretty level.
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Post by Hexhammer / MJ on Mar 9, 2019 22:50:36 GMT -5
This isn't an unpopular opinion this is just objectively correct information. would you mind telling me how exactly it's objective? i see a whole lot of opinions |
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3,783 posts
Discord: S3rios#8978
Clans: Aether Academy, Qualia, Invertia, Gas Station, Neutron Eco, Zircon
Creator Points: 000
Favorite Level: Transcendence by Millepatte
Hardest Demon: Mathymbol Epsilon
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"http://goodvibeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/vortex2.jpg","color":""}
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Post by S3rios on Mar 10, 2019 6:29:13 GMT -5
This isn't an unpopular opinion this is just objectively correct information. would you mind telling me how exactly it's objective? i see a whole lot of opinions ‘‘Twas a joke mine friend. |
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562 posts
Clans: [CNN]
Hardest Demon: ffffff
Mini-Profile Background: ffffff
Mini-Profile Name Color: {"image":"https://secure.static.tumblr.com/5f1c7bb0562f67f5c99bc9735d73a42b/pfrqf7c/TdUoewnf9/tumblr_static_filename_640_v2.jpg","color":""}
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Post by Zendayo on Mar 10, 2019 8:09:05 GMT -5
I don’t like how you think people like levels just because they are hard. On my server when a new extreme demon is rated and brought up, it is every time that we talk about the decoration for how much we like the level. We criticized the hell out of Dark Flare, a supposed top 20 level. Step to Hell, in the top 15, is hated among the playerbase for being bland, boring and having some of the absolute worst gameplay on the entire list. And people liked God Eater for how it looked. Personally I don’t like God Eater and I don’t think it looks the best but this is a subjective thing we are talking about. It appeals to some people and it looks like trash to others. Barely anybody cared where it would place on the list. What mattered to people is that it looked great to them. Again, we arent the majority here. Doesnt matter what we might think of levels. These levels get ratec either way because the ACTUAL majority of the community wants hard levels rated, regardless of their quality. |
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Post by Dragon on Mar 10, 2019 9:51:11 GMT -5
I don’t like how you think people like levels just because they are hard. On my server when a new extreme demon is rated and brought up, it is every time that we talk about the decoration for how much we like the level. We criticized the hell out of Dark Flare, a supposed top 20 level. Step to Hell, in the top 15, is hated among the playerbase for being bland, boring and having some of the absolute worst gameplay on the entire list. And people liked God Eater for how it looked. Personally I don’t like God Eater and I don’t think it looks the best but this is a subjective thing we are talking about. It appeals to some people and it looks like trash to others. Barely anybody cared where it would place on the list. What mattered to people is that it looked great to them. Again, we arent the majority here. Doesnt matter what we might think of levels. These levels get ratec either way because the ACTUAL majority of the community wants hard levels rated, regardless of their quality. I understand your intentions I suppose, however a majority of the forum community doesn't really care for extreme demons and they are often criticized upon their release. I for one usually judge a level based off whether I like it or not, and the fact that it's an extreme demon never factors in when I'm criticizing a level. If I see an extreme demon, and then see a medium or hard demon of similar quality, then the medium-hard demon will be just as rateworthy as the extreme in my opinion. I can assure you that most forumers think the same way, save for maybe a small few. I don't think you have the worst intentions with your posting, however I don't necessarily think it's being directed towards the right audience. I think it would be better if you said some of this stuff in larger servers where a lot of these supposed "blind supporters" are bound to be, since there aren't many of them here. |
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562 posts
Clans: [CNN]
Hardest Demon: ffffff
Mini-Profile Background: ffffff
Mini-Profile Name Color: {"image":"https://secure.static.tumblr.com/5f1c7bb0562f67f5c99bc9735d73a42b/pfrqf7c/TdUoewnf9/tumblr_static_filename_640_v2.jpg","color":""}
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Post by Zendayo on Mar 10, 2019 12:44:12 GMT -5
Again, we arent the majority here. Doesnt matter what we might think of levels. These levels get ratec either way because the ACTUAL majority of the community wants hard levels rated, regardless of their quality. I understand your intentions I suppose, however a majority of the forum community doesn't really care for extreme demons and they are often criticized upon their release. I for one usually judge a level based off whether I like it or not, and the fact that it's an extreme demon never factors in when I'm criticizing a level. If I see an extreme demon, and then see a medium or hard demon of similar quality, then the medium-hard demon will be just as rateworthy as the extreme in my opinion. I can assure you that most forumers think the same way, save for maybe a small few. I don't think you have the worst intentions with your posting, however I don't necessarily think it's being directed towards the right audience. I think it would be better if you said some of this stuff in larger servers where a lot of these supposed "blind supporters" are bound to be, since there aren't many of them here. I suppose so, but I doubt Id be able to even be able to even voice my opinions in this manner in a discord server considering the kind of mob mentality a majority of servers have, especially so with younger (possibly underage) users. And besides, I wouldnt be able to voice my opinions so thoroughly in a discord chat, considering I get quite heated quite quickly. |
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