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Post by DubstepJoltik on Jan 17, 2018 19:44:25 GMT -5
why in heck did juniper make the video lol I'm actually kinda happy Juniper did it. Etzer talks way too fast and his voice gets slightly boring to listen to after long periods of time, so I'm sorta happy there was a change. Juniper's voice is a lot more tolerable, imo. Also this is irrelevant but Etzer LITERALLY SAID in the Gauntlet Contest 3 video that Odyssey and Empyrean would be different difficulties, but both are 7 stars.
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Post by Pinkie Pie on Jan 17, 2018 20:28:33 GMT -5
wait what why the 40k obj limit? its not the object count that makes a level lag.
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Post by S3rios on Jan 17, 2018 21:39:38 GMT -5
The problem is that he's trying to ACT like it's fair while not REALLY making it fair. He does everything he can to systematically eliminate styles that he personally doesn't like while trying to make it look as fair as possible. In a game like this, having only 1 type of level be successful is bad for both creators and players. It encourages creators to conform to a certain style instead of doing what they want, and it pushes players away because they feel like they're just playing the same level again and again. I have to disagree with you that Rob is systematically trying to eliminate levels with styles he doesn't like. Really? So, I guess all his hidden rules about being noob friendly and art being too scary were fair right? This is the problem: he doesn't STATE these things. He keeps them hidden and then says "fuck you." It's also annoying because the judges have confirmed multiple times that Rob is quick to override their choices. Sure, he likes certain kinds of styles and gives them good ratings, but he has continually and persistently praised those levels that go out of the box and use the game's features in interesting ways. So that's why nearly every featured and epic level is the same style right? He rewards creators who make the styles that he personally likes more than he does the people who actually experiment. That's not to say I think one style is objectively better, but the problem is that there's very little variety. Sure, he limited the amount of objects able to be used in this contest, but I truly believe that is for the enjoyment of mobile/low processing power players. Do you remember the amount of backlash that the crystal gauntlet got for being unplayable? Rob likes those levels that use many objects (source; levels in the crystal gauntlet But he also likes levels that don't use many objects, as can be seen in the featured section.) but he also want to make sure that the grand majority of players can find the official RobTop-sponsored levels enjoyable. And honestly, he is doing that fine. If he allowed lag-heavy levels to be included in the gauntlet, we would see the same kind of backlash that the crystal gauntlet had- not just from people on the forums, but also from regular everyday players. And people would also complain, not just because RobTop included laggy levels, but also because he didn't listen to the backlash that was previously expressed. For Rob to ignore criticism would be an infinitely more immature thing for him to do, so I honestly believe he is making the right choice here. But the problem here is that he clearly has no idea what ACTUALLY lags a level, and he also just doesn't seem to care because it benefits the style he likes this way. I'm not saying he needs to include laggy levels, but this 40k restriction doesn't make any sense because object count is not that important of a factor in how much a level lags. The most important factors are object density (i.e: the amount of objects in one frame of blocks) and movement. For an example, go play Hypnotic Travel, and then play Overclock by Panman. Despite Hypnotic Travel having nearly twice the amount of objects, you'll find that it's much less laggy than overclock. Why? Because it spread the objects out across 9 minutes, while overclock compressed them into 1 minute and 13 seconds, as well as making them move in a very complex way. So, my point overall is that the 40k restriction doesn't ACTUALLY solve anything. A level that's only a minute long and uses all 40k objects could very well be laggy. The OTHER problem with the restriction is that Low Detail Mode exists. LDM was designed specifically for people with bad devices who can't run levels without lag. So, what about that? How about, instead of banning high object levels, you just require them to have a very good Low Detail Mode? I mean, if the LDM doesn't work, then by all means disqualify it. But the idea that a level shouldn't be able to use 80k objects just because it's POSSIBLE that it will lag is absurd to me.To summarize: Object amount isn't the biggest factor in how much a level lags, and eliminating all levels above 40k makes the Low Detail Mode feature obsolete and disregards the fact that not every level above 40k will lag.Also, I think there are more people who care about being able to actually play the levels than people who care about what style the levels are. Rob may not be pandering to the special few who actually think this deep into the level economy, but it would certainly be counterproductive for him to do so. How is it counterproductive for him to have a variety of different styles? As I've explained, having a variety is better for creators AND players. If you were talking about lag, then fine. Disqualify levels that lag too much. But putting in the 40k criteria doesn't actually stop all laggy levels. It just eliminates levels that might not lag and makes the Low Detail Mode completely useless.Replies in bold. |
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Post by Arcane on Jan 18, 2018 0:33:06 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you that Rob is systematically trying to eliminate levels with styles he doesn't like. Really? So, I guess all his hidden rules about being noob friendly and art being too scary were fair right? This is the problem: he doesn't STATE these things. He keeps them hidden and then says "fuck you." It's also annoying because the judges have confirmed multiple times that Rob is quick to override their choices. Sure, he likes certain kinds of styles and gives them good ratings, but he has continually and persistently praised those levels that go out of the box and use the game's features in interesting ways. So that's why nearly every featured and epic level is the same style right? He rewards creators who make the styles that he personally likes more than he does the people who actually experiment. That's not to say I think one style is objectively better, but the problem is that there's very little variety. Sure, he limited the amount of objects able to be used in this contest, but I truly believe that is for the enjoyment of mobile/low processing power players. Do you remember the amount of backlash that the crystal gauntlet got for being unplayable? Rob likes those levels that use many objects (source; levels in the crystal gauntlet But he also likes levels that don't use many objects, as can be seen in the featured section.) but he also want to make sure that the grand majority of players can find the official RobTop-sponsored levels enjoyable. And honestly, he is doing that fine. If he allowed lag-heavy levels to be included in the gauntlet, we would see the same kind of backlash that the crystal gauntlet had- not just from people on the forums, but also from regular everyday players. And people would also complain, not just because RobTop included laggy levels, but also because he didn't listen to the backlash that was previously expressed. For Rob to ignore criticism would be an infinitely more immature thing for him to do, so I honestly believe he is making the right choice here. But the problem here is that he clearly has no idea what ACTUALLY lags a level, and he also just doesn't seem to care because it benefits the style he likes this way. I'm not saying he needs to include laggy levels, but this 40k restriction doesn't make any sense because object count is not that important of a factor in how much a level lags. The most important factors are object density (i.e: the amount of objects in one frame of blocks) and movement. For an example, go play Hypnotic Travel, and then play Overclock by Panman. Despite Hypnotic Travel having nearly twice the amount of objects, you'll find that it's much less laggy than overclock. Why? Because it spread the objects out across 9 minutes, while overclock compressed them into 1 minute and 13 seconds, as well as making them move in a very complex way. So, my point overall is that the 40k restriction doesn't ACTUALLY solve anything. A level that's only a minute long and uses all 40k objects could very well be laggy. The OTHER problem with the restriction is that Low Detail Mode exists. LDM was designed specifically for people with bad devices who can't run levels without lag. So, what about that? How about, instead of banning high object levels, you just require them to have a very good Low Detail Mode? I mean, if the LDM doesn't work, then by all means disqualify it. But the idea that a level shouldn't be able to use 80k objects just because it's POSSIBLE that it will lag is absurd to me.To summarize: Object amount isn't the biggest factor in how much a level lags, and eliminating all levels above 40k makes the Low Detail Mode feature obsolete and disregards the fact that not every level above 40k will lag.Also, I think there are more people who care about being able to actually play the levels than people who care about what style the levels are. Rob may not be pandering to the special few who actually think this deep into the level economy, but it would certainly be counterproductive for him to do so. How is it counterproductive for him to have a variety of different styles? As I've explained, having a variety is better for creators AND players. If you were talking about lag, then fine. Disqualify levels that lag too much. But putting in the 40k criteria doesn't actually stop all laggy levels. It just eliminates levels that might not lag and makes the Low Detail Mode completely useless.Replies in bold. Frick me, frick life, I just made a really long detailed response but my computer deleted it. Frick everything. I'll try to make a tl;dr, pretend like it's detailed, fleshed out, and passionate: If RobTop didn't promote lower object levels, laggy players would literally have nothing to play I never criticized variety, stop using a straw man The grand majority of levels over 40k do lag, so it is extremely productive to remove them if you are trying to remove lag Rob needs to attract new players and retain old players, and it turns new players off when custom levels (a main advertisement point of the game) are mostly lag-filled Rob promoting <40k object levels in general should encourage creators to make better levels in less objects, which would be a win-win for everyone If you like lower object levels, they exist, and if you like higher-object levels, they also exist A gauntlet with higher objects exists, so it is understandable that there is also a gauntlet with lower objects LDMs are usually bad anyway and still lag (source: am player) |
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Post by thrU on Jan 21, 2018 12:10:31 GMT -5
why in heck did juniper make the video lol i'm pretty sure it said in the description that etzer was too busy to make another video. i don't see what's wrong, sure it isn't as high-quality but juniper did a good job nonetheless not opposed to it, just kinda weird choice. i guess juniper can also edit, so that might be a factor. |
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Post by megaman9 on Jan 21, 2018 19:33:05 GMT -5
i'm pretty sure it said in the description that etzer was too busy to make another video. i don't see what's wrong, sure it isn't as high-quality but juniper did a good job nonetheless not opposed to it, just kinda weird choice. i guess juniper can also edit, so that might be a factor. I think Viprin asked on Twitter if someone would make him a video, since Etzer couldn't. I guess Juniper responded...and honestly, I don't know of any other really good video editors except maybe ToshDeluxe...and we all know what that comments section would look like. |
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Post by kmb600 on Jan 25, 2018 16:10:13 GMT -5
I don't get why everybody's criticizing Rob for making so that this gauntlet needs to have levels below 40k objects, if you want higher object levels, play crystal or magic gauntlet, it's not Rob's fault that the comment sections are filled with "LAG1!!!" and "rip mobile players", at least he's trying to make the game more enjoyable for all players, ok? Jeez... pretty hyped for this gauntlet tho, really want to see what the bossfights are going to be like  |
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Post by Dragon on Jan 25, 2018 16:17:10 GMT -5
I don't get why everybody's criticizing Rob for making so that this gauntlet needs to have levels below 40k objects, if you want higher object levels, play crystal or magic gauntlet, it's not Rob's fault that the comment sections are filled with "LAG1!!!" and "rip mobile players", at least he's trying to make the game more enjoyable for all players, ok? Jeez... pretty hyped for this gauntlet tho, really want to see what the bossfights are going to be like Lowering the object limit won’t solve the problem. The rule should just be “Make actually good LDMs instead of ones that remove 4 objects and don’t actually fix the lag.” Additionally, objects don’t cause lag. Move and rotate triggers do. |
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Post by œ on Jan 25, 2018 21:46:32 GMT -5
I wish I was famous cuz having somebody to actually test the LDMs would be very beneficial and I can do that
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Post by Ezel on Jan 26, 2018 10:25:28 GMT -5
I don't really like the idea of bossfight levels as there aren't many bossfights I really enjoy but I hope the creators will make them good enough to be enjoyable.
I'm just hoping it won't end like it did with the Doom Gauntlet: full of memorization, weird gameplay choices and unbalanced gameplay. I really dislike these boss battles in the DG levels because they are basically no skill, just pure memorization. Other than that, I also hope he will stick better with the "noob-friendly" rule because it didn't really work in the Doom Gauntlet.
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Post by kmb600 on Jan 26, 2018 19:38:28 GMT -5
I don't get why everybody's criticizing Rob for making so that this gauntlet needs to have levels below 40k objects, if you want higher object levels, play crystal or magic gauntlet, it's not Rob's fault that the comment sections are filled with "LAG1!!!" and "rip mobile players", at least he's trying to make the game more enjoyable for all players, ok? Jeez... pretty hyped for this gauntlet tho, really want to see what the bossfights are going to be like Lowering the object limit won’t solve the problem. The rule should just be “Make actually good LDMs instead of ones that remove 4 objects and don’t actually fix the lag.” Additionally, objects don’t cause lag. Move and rotate triggers do. Yes, I know objects don't cause lag (I never said they do), I was just saying that people should stop complaining as lots of levels have pretty bad LDMs so reducing object limit will help alongside LDM, the lower obj limit will also stop most creators from creating object-heavy parts (which is sometimes good, but creators tend to move those large objects, creating lag, but reducing those objects would cause lag lag, so in a sense, they kind of do cause lag) as creators tend to create lag-heavy parts with more objects (idk, I really don't mind either way, but I do think people should stop whining about lower obj limit) |
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Post by Dragon on Jan 26, 2018 20:01:23 GMT -5
Lowering the object limit won’t solve the problem. The rule should just be “Make actually good LDMs instead of ones that remove 4 objects and don’t actually fix the lag.” Additionally, objects don’t cause lag. Move and rotate triggers do. Yes, I know objects don't cause lag (I never said they do), I was just saying that people should stop complaining as lots of levels have pretty bad LDMs so reducing object limit will help alongside LDM, the lower obj limit will also stop most creators from creating object-heavy parts (which is sometimes good, but creators tend to move those large objects, creating lag, but reducing those objects would cause lag lag, so in a sense, they kind of do cause lag) as creators tend to create lag-heavy parts with more objects (idk, I really don't mind either way, but I do think people should stop whining about lower obj limit) Ill say what I said before on the subject. Having a lower object limit ultimately hinders certain creators from being able to participate because their style may require more objects, forcing them to find a different style they aren’t as good with. If the rules were “If you have more than 40000 objects, then an effective LDM, is required,” I would be fine with this. But rather than that, he just reduces the object limit altogether. That I find ridiculous. |
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Post by kmb600 on Jan 27, 2018 17:53:06 GMT -5
Yes, I know objects don't cause lag (I never said they do), I was just saying that people should stop complaining as lots of levels have pretty bad LDMs so reducing object limit will help alongside LDM, the lower obj limit will also stop most creators from creating object-heavy parts (which is sometimes good, but creators tend to move those large objects, creating lag, but reducing those objects would cause lag lag, so in a sense, they kind of do cause lag) as creators tend to create lag-heavy parts with more objects (idk, I really don't mind either way, but I do think people should stop whining about lower obj limit) Ill say what I said before on the subject. Having a lower object limit ultimately hinders certain creators from being able to participate because their style may require more objects, forcing them to find a different style they aren’t as good with. If the rules were “If you have more than 40000 objects, then an effective LDM, is required,” I would be fine with this. But rather than that, he just reduces the object limit altogether. That I find ridiculous. Ok, yes, I know that's true, but at least Rob allowed levels with up to 60k objects now  |
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