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Post by Cuck_gmd on Feb 20, 2019 11:36:33 GMT -5
I think this will be an interesting question to ask since people seem to be split on this in my school. Also sorry if the poll might be kind of stupid, I thought it might be good to guage people's opinions in some way.
I personally believe men and women are pretty much equal, I mean women might be very slightly disadvantaged but both men and women have their advantages and disadvantages in life depending on the context. For example women have an advantage in getting custody of children after a divorce, but might have a disadvantage in having more pressure on them about appearance, weight, not being a slut, etc. And men might have an advantage in certain science and technological fields, or getting elected in politics, but they have a disadvantage in having a higher suicide rate and higher workplace deaths. I think the best way to solve these issues is to focus on neither being oppressed, instead we should look at treating people fairly within each individual context.
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Post by Ziel on Feb 20, 2019 11:44:16 GMT -5
Why is there no option to say 'both are discriminated in different scenarios and it's difficult to gauge whose life is more difficult'? Because that's what I believe to be the case. Historically, women were very much oppressed against, but let's not forget about the men and how disposable we are. If there is only one woman left in the world, there is no chance for society to survive - but if we switch it around to one man, there is a small chance we can recover. Biologically, men are stronger (though this isn't always the case due to genetics and different lifestyles). Because of both of these reasons, men are usually the ones sent to war or doing the heavy lifting.
I'd say both are at a disadvantage, just in different ways.
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Post by durianhead on Feb 20, 2019 12:12:55 GMT -5
it's times like these where i thank the heavens above that beany isn't around on the forums anymore
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 12:16:07 GMT -5
it's times like these where i thank the heavens above that beany isn't around on the forums anymore Yep, now the only conservative you have to deal with is me. Isn't that nice  |
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Post by durianhead on Feb 20, 2019 12:17:40 GMT -5
it's times like these where i thank the heavens above that beany isn't around on the forums anymore Yep, now the only conservative you have to deal with is me. Isn't that nice yeah uh was thinking more along the lines of "it's nice because we don't have a name-calling provocateur lunatic on the forums anymore" but ok if you want to spin it that way man |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 12:19:31 GMT -5
it's times like these where i thank the heavens above that beany isn't around on the forums anymore Yep, now the only conservative you have to deal with is me. Isn't that nice Durian’s post was not a post against conservatives, he is not saying that you are bad at all. |
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Post by S3rios on Feb 20, 2019 12:25:14 GMT -5
So, just to ward off people who are going to call me an SJW for this, let's look at some issues where men legitimately are disadvantaged:
Men are far less likely to win a custody battle. That isn't disputable. Men's prison sentences when compared to woman's are 60% longer. This could be for a variety of reasons but one of them is DEFINITELY a prevailing social attitude about men being more violent.
That said, in society at large, woman are definitely more oppressed, at least socially. While in most places they are legally equal, the social attitudes about women are prevalent and far reaching. The earnings gap gets memed a lot as being an SJW myth, and obviously woman aren't being payed 29 cents less per dollar for doing the same jobs, but they ARE taking lower-paying jobs overall, and the reason for that is largely due to societal pressures. Women are highly underrepresented in STEM fields and that's because in general, society doesn't encourage women to go into those kinds of fields. Men don't have those same kinds of pressures. As a man there isn't anything you're ever told isn't a job for you, except for some very specific things like fashion or makeup. But the REASON that those aren't encouraged for men is because those are seen as "girly", and thus bad. It's not a man's job because that kind of job is too feminine and being too feminine is bad.
So while legally, I would say men and woman are probably supposed to be equal, that isn't how it works out in application. Now, that said, there are discussions about what we should do to counteract it. Is the answer affirmative action plans? Is the answer media representation? Is this just a natural result of biology? Who knows. But we can't have that discussion until we've recognized that the problem exists.
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Post by S3rios on Feb 20, 2019 12:27:08 GMT -5
Yep, now the only conservative you have to deal with is me. Isn't that nice Durian’s post was not a post against conservatives, he is not saying that you are bad at all. While beany was annoying to deal with I almost prefer him to Jayfrost in the sense that at least when I argued against beany I didn't get 50 thousand people trying to be apologists for all the bigoted viewpoints he has. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 12:35:45 GMT -5
Durian’s post was not a post against conservatives, he is not saying that you are bad at all. While beany was annoying to deal with I almost prefer him to Jayfrost in the sense that at least when I argued against beany I didn't get 50 thousand people trying to be apologists for all the bigoted viewpoints he was making. Last I checked, Ziel is one person.
I'm deciding to leave that 'conversation' alone, since apparently you don't appreciate anyone standing up for my points and because I don't need more people flaming because of me.
It's also not very nice to debate with people who aren't very civil or cool-tempered.
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Post by Cuck_gmd on Feb 20, 2019 12:39:58 GMT -5
Why is there no option to say 'both are discriminated in different scenarios and it's difficult to gauge whose life is more difficult'? Because that's what I believe to be the case. Historically, women were very much oppressed against, but let's not forget about the men and how disposable we are. If there is only one woman left in the world, there is no chance for society to survive - but if we switch it around to one man, there is a small chance we can recover. Biologically, men are stronger (though this isn't always the case due to genetics and different lifestyles). Because of both of these reasons, men are usually the ones sent to war or doing the heavy lifting. I'd say both are at a disadvantage, just in different ways. The option "men and women are equal" is supposed to say that men and women are equal overall, I should have put that in the poll option but I can't change it now. What I mean by that is, if you could somehow add up the advantages and disadvantages of men and women, giving a positive score for advantages for each and a negative score for disadvantages, the two scores would be roughly the same, even if the scores aren't the same in each individual area. I maybe should have added an "impossible to tell" option, so sorry that there isn't a vote for you I don't think the hypothetical "one man" and "one woman" scenarios are that relevant to the ideas of gender equality though, even if men are disposable in that scenario thats never gonna happen. I agree that men have been proven to be biologically stronger but that doesn't mean women can't be heavy lifters or soldiers. And they shouldn't be discouraged from choosing these professions, either from a practical or moral point of view. (I'm not saying you were arguing the opposite, I'm just making that point). Yeah and I agree both have some disadvantages It would be interesting to hear from people who think men are disadvantaged since it seems kind of split here as well. |
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Post by S3rios on Feb 20, 2019 12:47:17 GMT -5
While beany was annoying to deal with I almost prefer him to Jayfrost in the sense that at least when I argued against beany I didn't get 50 thousand people trying to be apologists for all the bigoted viewpoints he was making. Last I checked, Ziel is one person.
I'm deciding to leave that 'conversation' alone, since apparently you don't appreciate anyone standing up for my points and because I don't need more people flaming because of me.
It's also not very nice to debate with people who aren't very civil or cool-tempered.
I don't see how calling you homophobic or bigoted is in any way flaming you. It's an accurate descriptor of your behavior. If you feel like it's a bad thing to be a homophobe or to be a bigot, perhaps that's a sign that you should change your views. |
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Post by Ziel on Feb 20, 2019 12:51:49 GMT -5
While beany was annoying to deal with I almost prefer him to Jayfrost in the sense that at least when I argued against beany I didn't get 50 thousand people trying to be apologists for all the bigoted viewpoints he was making. Last I checked, Ziel is one person.
I'm deciding to leave that 'conversation' alone, since apparently you don't appreciate anyone standing up for my points and because I don't need more people flaming because of me.
It's also not very nice to debate with people who aren't very civil or cool-tempered.
I mean, I don't necessarily agree with everything you're saying (even included that in my latest post that I've misinterpreted quite some things) but I do think all the heat there is unwarranted. Still, I'm talking to him on Discord right now and it's a lot more pleasant than on the forums I'd say. Probably.
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Post by Ezel on Feb 20, 2019 13:02:57 GMT -5
Something that really annoys me in people's point of view is describing how "manly" or "girly" certain acts or behaviors are. It's such a dumb and old stereotype that I'm suprised people still go that way. I'm sick of people thinking about men like they need to be strong and good at everything, and if a woman is better in any form than them, then it's some sort of shame. But why?
If these stereotypes weren't a thing even these days, I think people would have more respect to both males and females at least in that aspect. It just pisses me off when someone calls out me or someone for not being a "man" just because I'm not as good as someone else or I'm just not interested in certain activities. It sounds stupid and ignorant.
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Post by Cuck_gmd on Feb 20, 2019 13:12:44 GMT -5
Something that really annoys me in people's point of view is describing how "manly" or "girly" certain acts or behaviors are. It's such a dumb and old stereotype that I'm suprised people still go that way. I'm sick of people thinking about men like they need to be strong and good at everything, and if a woman is better in any form than them, then it's some sort of shame. But why? If these stereotypes weren't a thing even these days, I think people would have more respect to both males and females at least in that aspect. It just pisses me off when someone calls out me or someone for not being a "man" just because I'm not as good as someone else or I'm just not interested in certain activities. It sounds stupid and ignorant. I don't agree that being manly of girly is a dumb and old stereotype. Masculinity and femininity will always exist to some extent because they are based on biology and the psychology of the different sexes, some of it is based on environment as well. Men will always be naturally more masculine on average, and women will always be naturally more feminine on average. For example men will always be physically stronger (which I think is part of being manly). So I think it will always exist. However I do agree that it's stupid to make fun of people for not fitting the stereotypes. Everyone should be encouraged to be the identity they want and not be sheep to these identities. |
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Post by Ezel on Feb 20, 2019 13:31:25 GMT -5
Something that really annoys me in people's point of view is describing how "manly" or "girly" certain acts or behaviors are. It's such a dumb and old stereotype that I'm suprised people still go that way. I'm sick of people thinking about men like they need to be strong and good at everything, and if a woman is better in any form than them, then it's some sort of shame. But why? If these stereotypes weren't a thing even these days, I think people would have more respect to both males and females at least in that aspect. It just pisses me off when someone calls out me or someone for not being a "man" just because I'm not as good as someone else or I'm just not interested in certain activities. It sounds stupid and ignorant. I don't agree that being manly of girly is a dumb and old stereotype. Masculinity and femininity will always exist to some extent because they are based on biology and the psychology of the different sexes, some of it is based on environment as well. Men will always be naturally more masculine on average, and women will always be naturally more feminine on average. For example men will always be physically stronger (which I think is part of being manly). So I think it will always exist. However I do agree that it's stupid to make fun of people for not fitting the stereotypes. Everyone should be encouraged to be the identity they want and not be sheep to these identities. It's not the natural structure that's the problem, it's the mentality of people when they have created these stereotypes. It's just annoys me how women get often praised for "manly" activities, but if for example a male is sensitive or he just prefers more chill activities that aren't heavy or they just aren't as strong as someone would think, they're being mocked for being a "girl" or weakling. It's stupid that people's mentality set specific activities to certain genders. It's unfair and often insulting towards people who don't follow the activities. Of course this mostly refers to males, however women are often discriminated in for example sexual ways. I see a lot of people, even on websites like Twitch who pop up on a random stream just to act like a sexist jerk. I saw that even happening a few times to one of my friends, however I'm glad she doesn't really care about that as much and doesn't get offended easily. Both males and females get discriminated in some way. |
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