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Post by burrito1 on Nov 6, 2018 19:58:21 GMT -5
(this is not toward nixty, this is toward spikejumper and rtef, other people responded to nixty's points better than I ever could) I truly do not understand why people are so obsessed with there only being 2 genders. Even if you count gender as purely biological, it's simply not true. Some people are born intersex with a mix of male and female genitals. I'm not exactly an expert on this (ok fine, I know effectively nothing about it) but I found this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IntersexIt may be just me, but I feel like those people who claim to be one gender one day and the other next is a bit harmful, as it downplays the issues people with gender dysphoria and transgenders have to go by, as some might think they're transitioning just because they "feel" like it. As of my "two genders" response: First, I just highlighted that part of my post to be provocative, and second, I think so because neither inter or transgenders have special characteristics exclusive to them, they're just transitioning from one pre-existing gender to the other one they truly feel they "belong" to How are intersex people "transitioning"?
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Post by burrito1 on Nov 6, 2018 20:04:20 GMT -5
Woah there. As a Christian myself, I don’t really see why you should be directly insulting gay people for existing. Any gay person may be a really cool dude (Lockstep, for instance). There’s no problem with telling people about God (it’s very much a good thing); just don’t directly insult people while doing so. I've made it pretty clear before that I believe being gay is a choice people make. That being said, if you considered the possibility of me being right, I wouldn't be insulting the people at all - I'd be insulting what they believe is moral compared to me, in one particular aspect. Have you considered talking to gay people to see if it's actually a choice they make?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2018 20:17:06 GMT -5
I've made it pretty clear before that I believe being gay is a choice people make. That being said, if you considered the possibility of me being right, I wouldn't be insulting the people at all - I'd be insulting what they believe is moral compared to me, in one particular aspect. Have you considered talking to gay people to see if it's actually a choice they make? I've talked to plenty of them on another site and a lot of them said that they "became gay" at a point.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2018 20:21:59 GMT -5
Woah there. As a Christian myself, I don’t really see why you should be directly insulting gay people for existing. Any gay person may be a really cool dude (Lockstep, for instance). There’s no problem with telling people about God (it’s very much a good thing); just don’t directly insult people while doing so. I've made it pretty clear before that I believe being gay is a choice people make. That being said, if you considered the possibility of me being right, I wouldn't be insulting the people at all - I'd be insulting what they believe is moral compared to me, in one particular aspect. Should you choose to fully disregard the countless, countless studies upon studies that disprove being gay is NOT a choice, I think you should be hearing my story.
I used to be a pretty decent Christian and I had my life planned around marrying a girl when I was young. I thought being gay was completely wrong and people went to hell for it. How might somebody call it choice then, when I noticed that I found boys attractive and hated myself for it, tried to oppress my gay thoughts, convinced myself that it was just a passing phase. How might it be by choice that I was put through that hell of being a Christian and being somebody who I wanted so badly to not be? I'm not a Christian anymore, and why I fell away was for completely separate reasons to this, but how would you explain that? Psychological insanity? What about the hundreds of animal species that have been observed to have homosexual behaviour? Are they not incapable of the thought process that humans do? They certainly aren't sinning and going to hell, are they? KneeVan, a Christian as well, believes that it is not a choice nor do many of my Christian friends. The evidence is simply overwhelming that it isn't. Have you considered talking to gay people to see if it's actually a choice they make? I've talked to plenty of them on another site and a lot of them said that they "became gay" at a point. They mean they hit the point where they start to find people sexually attractive, people don't just "Become gay" all of the sudden, that's absolutely ridiculous.
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Post by stlaymore on Nov 6, 2018 20:39:41 GMT -5
Prefacing this, I do not at all antagonize to people being whatever gender they want. Refer to my first post for my thoughts on this matter.
S3rios, you’re being aggressive with your words. I don’t invest my life into religion, but just as a person watching your argument from an outside perspective, it’s nothing short of counterproductive. Throwing insults and potshots at another person, no matter how stupid you deem them, will just drive them further down the road of resentment. You’re trying to “prove” Jay wrong by verbally slamming him into submission with subtle language (“Sorry if I’m being too rational for literally only you”? Really?), and, as observed in the past, combatting anger with even more anger, more often than not, doesn’t end well. I’m not saying this to antagonize you, in fact, I agree with you; in cases like these, religion is holding people back from acceptance of others and the world around us. But you’ve repeatedly shown that your reasoning behind your tone is that “He is being mean, so I will be mean to him”, which is a subjectively bad justification of how you treat other people; just because he trashes someone doesn’t give you a free pass to do the same to him. If this were, say, an issue that caused physical harm, then, yes, there would be a number of circumstances where this mindset may be appropriate. But, since we’re talking about beliefs which are undeniably always subject to change, I see no valid reason to attempt to come to a peaceful conclusion. I’d understand if you tried to reason with Jay and he consistently rejected your points using close-minded beliefs, thus showing how ignorant he stays to the situation, but you shot him between the eyes straight off the bat, which, again, isn’t the optimal choice if we as a collective population want people to start accepting others for who they are. If we want to reach a diplomatic and reasonable resolution to an explosive subject like gender, this is not how we’re going to get there; as mentioned in the beginning, I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAY. However, your needless thrashing of others based a single behavioral observation is unnecessary and will get us no closer towards unity. Instead, convince them using solid reasoning and evidence instead of just throwing sugarcoated statements that all add up to “You’re stupid for believing in an invisible man.” If Jay retains his view and stays unaccepting of homosexuals, that’s when you may be able to put your foot down. Peace is not something you can achieve by force.
As for Jay, I find it odd that you’re hardset on religion and take it to heart. Maybe it’s because science has overtaken the worldview of the things around us and religion is slowly becoming more and more dated, but I can’t understand why you continue to uphold our beliefs in favor of, arguably, better ones. Your proof of God’s existence is, from my perspective, hardly sensible; “the complexity of things, the way everything turned out, how Earth is the only inhabitable planet”. I won’t address the first two reasons because frankly they’re too vague and I have no idea what you mean by them, and don’t be afraid to tell me what they are, but I’ll address your third point. You say that only a small percentage of any given galaxy would contain habitable planets. Sensible. But what doesn’t make sense is how you connect this to God; the reason we live on a habitable planet (which, as established, is very rare) is because we wouldn’t be able to live on an uninhabitable planet because it’s uninhabitable. We’re forced to live on a habitable planet because we wouldn’t be able to develop and survive, otherwise. And, since the universe is infinitely expanding, it wouldn’t be maniacal to to think that, out of the billions, maybe even trillions of possibilities, at least one planet would be hospitable. The last reason about conscious thoughts is one I can’t exactly untangle myself, but if you’re basing your belief on religion on a single factor, that seems pretty selective of you. And the fact that you called gays “abominations” is... irritating, to say the least. When you label them as such, you’re quite literally grouping them with malevolent and deformed monsters, which is plain disrespectful.
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Post by S3rios on Nov 6, 2018 21:37:16 GMT -5
I find it so hilarious that you're here trying to preach about how we shouldn't make you the butt of a joke while you simultaneously call being gay an abomination. But I am actually being entirely serious, while my beliefs are being all but openly bashed.Yes. You ARE being made the butt of a joke for your intolerant and unfounded beliefs, as you should be. I could call your beliefs the same thing - it's rather an opinion. On another note, I think my beliefs aren't unfounded if they come straight from a book that cites the laws God gave man... If you're going to put your nutty, bronze age belief (bronze age? Last I checked (very recently), Christianity still has millions of followers worldwide and is one of the largest existing religions, and that's anything but bronze age) in an invisible man in the sky over treating gay people with the common decency that YOU seem to expect from other people, then you deserve to be made the subject of these jokes. My problem is with what others believe about the morality of being gay or whatnot, not the person themselves. There are certainly many kind and intelligent people who happen to be gay. People who believe in a flat earth or the flying spaghetti monster are laughed at for having such ridiculous beliefs, so I don't see why your ridiculous beliefs should be treated any differently. Yet again, I could just dismiss your own atheist beliefs as laughable; it goes two ways. However, a flat earth has been disproved by photos and modern science, and a "flying spaghetti monster" wouldn't exist since spaghetti is an inanimate object. I see proof of God's existence in nature - the complexity of things, the way everything just turned out the way it did, the way how Earth happens to somehow be the only inhabitable planet we know of (even with technology of today, the estimated number of planets in a galaxy is such that only an extremely small percentage, if even any at all, would be inhabitable), even how we as humans have conscious thoughts, the most intricate of any so far discovered species. I doubt that all those things would have come into being from an accident, a Big Bang, or the heating of the universe. You SHOULD be made a fool of for your utter lack of decency and common sense. Your definition of common sense may be something that I don't have, but you saying I lack any decency is the unfounded thing here.I'm sorry if I'm being too rational for literally only you (and maybe beany), but I'm just saying what I think. Replies in cyan.
EDIT: Sorry for double posting, I didn't see Ethan's reply
"But I am actually being entirely serious, while my beliefs are being all but openly bashed." You fundamentally misunderstood my point here. You're advocating for other people to be tolerant of your beliefs, and yet you at the same time are calling gay people abominations. If I were to call you an abomination for your beliefs, would you see that as fair? If not, why do you then also think it's fair for a gay person to be called an abomination? Also, if you DID understand what I said, then your wording here seems to imply that you don't think gay people are actually serious, in which case I need a citation. " I could call your beliefs the same thing - it's rather an opinion." OK, so let's go through the list; my beliefs are intolerant of someone like you, so I guess in that sense sure, I'm intolerant. However, what about my beliefs are unfounded? My beliefs, or lack thereof, stem from a lack of evidence. Is a lack of evidence unfounded in your eyes? "On another note, I think my beliefs aren't unfounded if they come straight from a book that cites the laws God gave man..." They are according to you, but if I went and talked to a Muslim they'd probably say that those laws are bullshit and that the real ones were given to man in the Quran. The divinity of these laws is predicated on the existence of your God, so until you can prove to me that your God exists, I will continue to call them totally unfounded. "(bronze age? Last I checked (very recently), Christianity still has millions of followers worldwide and is one of the largest existing religions, and that's anything but bronze age)" In fact, Christianity has BILLIONS of followers worldwide and it IS the largest existing religion. But that's not what I mean by bronze-age. I mean that it's a bronze-age belief in the sense that it was created around that time and is, thus, outdated and incompatible with modern ideals. "My problem is with what others believe about the morality of being gay or whatnot, not the person themselves. There are certainly many kind and intelligent people who happen to be gay." Really? So despite the fact that you said you believed being gay to be an abomination, you still maintain that you do not have any problem with the persons themselves? Either you're terrible at articulating yourself or that's a huge logical inconsistency on your part. "Yet again, I could just dismiss your own atheist beliefs as laughable; it goes two ways." Do you believe that disbelief in your God is laughable? How so? "However, a flat earth has been disproved by photos and modern science, and a "flying spaghetti monster" wouldn't exist since spaghetti is an inanimate object." I won't disagree with your first point, but in regards to your latter point, it's one of the weakest takedowns of the argument I've ever seen. Yes, spaghetti IS an inanimate object, but the existence of spaghetti and the existence of a flying spaghetti monster are mutually exclusive concepts. You could have one and also still have the other. "I see proof of God's existence in nature - the complexity of things, the way everything just turned out the way it did, the way how Earth happens to somehow be the only inhabitable planet we know of (even with technology of today, the estimated number of planets in a galaxy is such that only an extremely small percentage, if even any at all, would be inhabitable)" Sure, everything happened the way it did, but had it not happened the way it did, we wouldn't be here to observe that it didn't happen that way. And things DIDN'T happen the way they did with earth for billions and billions of years after the creation of the universe. As for your claim that we are the only theoretically habitable planet in our entire galaxy, that would still mean that there could be hundreds of billions of habitable planets. Why? Because believe it or not, the universe exists OUTSIDE of our galaxy. There are 100 billion galaxies (Source) so even if only 1 in 10 galaxies had a planet capable of harboring life, there would be tens of billions of planets capable of doing so in the universe. And even with ALL of that said, why is it that us being unique and special is an argument for the existence of YOUR God? Why not Allah? Why not the Greek Gods? Why not some god no one knows about? Even if you want to claim all of this is evidence of a divine creator you then need to tell me why yours is so damn compelling over the rest of them. "even how we as humans have conscious thoughts, the most intricate of any so far discovered species. I doubt that all those things would have come into being from an accident, a Big Bang, or the heating of the universe." Well, luckily, how you FEEL about things has no bearing in fact. When I was young, I did not feel like it was possible for something to be in two places at once, and yet with the double slit experiment scientist have proved that in fact on a quantum level, things CAN be in two places at once. The fact that you feel as if this is impossible to have come about is not in it of itself evidence that it didn't happen this way because of an "accident" or the Big Bang. "our definition of common sense may be something that I don't have, but you saying I lack any decency is the unfounded thing here. " I would say that you calling the act of being gay an "abomination" shows a profound lack in decency. Of course that's ultimately subjective but so is morality as a whole, so the point is moot. I would also call your assertion that being gay is a choice to be lacking in decency, as well as being totally unfounded in any science I've ever heard. Could you please cite the scientific literature that you used to come to the conclusion that gay people choose to be the way they are? I think I covered just about everything
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Post by Subzero on Nov 6, 2018 21:40:55 GMT -5
Woah there. As a Christian myself, I don’t really see why you should be directly insulting gay people for existing. Any gay person may be a really cool dude (Lockstep, for instance). There’s no problem with telling people about God (it’s very much a good thing); just don’t directly insult people while doing so. I've made it pretty clear before that I believe being gay is a choice people make. That being said, if you considered the possibility of me being right, I wouldn't be insulting the people at all - I'd be insulting what they believe is moral compared to me, in one particular aspect. Well this is very false. I'm a bisexual boy, though I lean more towards liking the same gender. I'm really insecure about it and I hope that one day I'll wake up straight. If being gay truly was a choice, then it wouldn't be hard for me to just like girls, but the truth is just that sexuality is intrinsic and (in my case) unchanging. Besides, why would I make my life intentionally difficult? It makes no sense. This isn't me bashing your opinion or whatever, it's just a fact of life.
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Post by burrito1 on Nov 6, 2018 23:58:07 GMT -5
Have you considered talking to gay people to see if it's actually a choice they make? I've talked to plenty of them on another site and a lot of them said that they "became gay" at a point. I think straights choose to become straight, because I've talked to plenty of straights and they say they "started liking girls" at a point. \s Just because they became gay doesn't mean they chose it, it means they simply weren't sure of their sexuality. What motivation would anyone have to voluntarily be gay? Do you think you could become gay if you tried hard enough, since it's apparently a choice?
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Post by flash on Nov 7, 2018 3:42:08 GMT -5
(this is not toward nixty, this is toward spikejumper and rtef, other people responded to nixty's points better than I ever could) I truly do not understand why people are so obsessed with there only being 2 genders. Even if you count gender as purely biological, it's simply not true. Some people are born intersex with a mix of male and female genitals. I'm not exactly an expert on this (ok fine, I know effectively nothing about it) but I found this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexyeah it is true. the best argument i've heard on this topic is this: we're taught in school that people have 10 fingers. but some people are abnormaly born with 9 or 11 or whatever. however, this is such a slim fraction of the population that they are considered abnormalities. people still have 10 fingers. same goes for gender/sex, people can be born intersex but it's such a rarity that they are exclusions to the rule. there are still two genders/sexes
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Post by burrito1 on Nov 7, 2018 4:06:33 GMT -5
(this is not toward nixty, this is toward spikejumper and rtef, other people responded to nixty's points better than I ever could) I truly do not understand why people are so obsessed with there only being 2 genders. Even if you count gender as purely biological, it's simply not true. Some people are born intersex with a mix of male and female genitals. I'm not exactly an expert on this (ok fine, I know effectively nothing about it) but I found this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexyeah it is true. the best argument i've heard on this topic is this: we're taught in school that people have 10 fingers. but some people are abnormaly born with 9 or 11 or whatever. however, this is such a slim fraction of the population that they are considered abnormalities. people still have 10 fingers. same goes for gender/sex, people can be born intersex but it's such a rarity that they are exclusions to the rule. there are still two genders/sexes They're abnormalities but they still exist. Just because they're rare doesn't mean they should be completely disregarded, just like how people with 9 or 11 fingers shouldn't be told that they have 10 fingers when they actually don't.
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Post by burrito1 on Nov 7, 2018 4:20:13 GMT -5
(this is not toward nixty, this is toward spikejumper and rtef, other people responded to nixty's points better than I ever could) I truly do not understand why people are so obsessed with there only being 2 genders. Even if you count gender as purely biological, it's simply not true. Some people are born intersex with a mix of male and female genitals. I'm not exactly an expert on this (ok fine, I know effectively nothing about it) but I found this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IntersexI think there’s only 2 genders and the other stuff is stupid. Intersex people are still hardwired to one gender. I mean come on why are we creating a whole new gender for trans girls who are tomboys? I suppose then, that any regular tomboy is then no longer of the female gender and should identify as a separate one? I suppose that since I can be pretty feminine in the way I act IRL sometimes that I should be intentifying with the same gender as feminine trans boys and whatever ‘gender’ they made up? I’m a big trans supporter and all but I don’t get the more than 2 gender thing. Sorry if this came off as aggressive, that wasn’t my intent, just wasn’t sure how else to word it Almost by definition, intersex people aren't hardwired to one gender, so could I have some evidence that they are? If they have a mix of biological male and female characteristics then I don't see why they're necessarily one gender or the other. I don't support making 500 new gender names for every point on the spectrum, but I couldn't care less if someone identifies as a mix of male and female (as long as the person can choose between "he" and "she" for people to refer to them as); they're not harming anyone, just leave them be. The only reason I made that post is just because it bugs me so much when people say it as if it's some undisputable fact of life that there are only 2 genders, like how Spikejumper and RTef did. Just a pet peeve I guess.
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Post by flash on Nov 7, 2018 4:35:52 GMT -5
yeah it is true. the best argument i've heard on this topic is this: we're taught in school that people have 10 fingers. but some people are abnormaly born with 9 or 11 or whatever. however, this is such a slim fraction of the population that they are considered abnormalities. people still have 10 fingers. same goes for gender/sex, people can be born intersex but it's such a rarity that they are exclusions to the rule. there are still two genders/sexes They're abnormalities but they still exist. Just because they're rare doesn't mean they should be completely disregarded, just like how people with 9 or 11 fingers shouldn't be told that they have 10 fingers when they actually don't. you missed the point. if i asked you how many fingers a person has, you would certainly say "10" and not "10 but in extremely unlikely cases people can have more or less". same goes here.
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Post by perrito triste on Nov 7, 2018 8:30:22 GMT -5
It may be just me, but I feel like those people who claim to be one gender one day and the other next is a bit harmful, as it downplays the issues people with gender dysphoria and transgenders have to go by, as some might think they're transitioning just because they "feel" like it. As of my "two genders" response: First, I just highlighted that part of my post to be provocative, and second, I think so because neither inter or transgenders have special characteristics exclusive to them, they're just transitioning from one pre-existing gender to the other one they truly feel they "belong" to How are intersex people "transitioning"? They don't, that's why I said they can't relate to transgenders
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Post by burrito1 on Nov 7, 2018 11:30:22 GMT -5
They're abnormalities but they still exist. Just because they're rare doesn't mean they should be completely disregarded, just like how people with 9 or 11 fingers shouldn't be told that they have 10 fingers when they actually don't. you missed the point. if i asked you how many fingers a person has, you would certainly say "10" and not "10 but in extremely unlikely cases people can have more or less". same goes here. If someone was asked how many fingers a person had, and you answered "10 fingers", then that's fine. However, if you answered "THERE IS ONE NUMBER OF FINGERS, AND THAT IS 10!!!", which is the equivalent of what spikejumper and rtef did, then it would be a bit misleading, no? Insisting and insisting that there are only 2 genders is effectively telling intersex people that they don't exist. Likewise, if someone casually asked me how many genders there are and I was rushed for time, I would probably say 2 (unless I had time to elaborate to them), but I would never answer "there are only 2 genders, absolutely nothing more".
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Post by ShiroNox on Nov 7, 2018 16:11:42 GMT -5
I've made it pretty clear before that I believe being gay is a choice people make. That being said, if you considered the possibility of me being right, I wouldn't be insulting the people at all - I'd be insulting what they believe is moral compared to me, in one particular aspect. Should you choose to fully disregard the countless, countless studies upon studies that disprove being gay is NOT a choice, I think you should be hearing my story.
I used to be a pretty decent Christian and I had my life planned around marrying a girl when I was young. I thought being gay was completely wrong and people went to hell for it. How might somebody call it choice then, when I noticed that I found boys attractive and hated myself for it, tried to oppress my gay thoughts, convinced myself that it was just a passing phase. How might it be by choice that I was put through that hell of being a Christian and being somebody who I wanted so badly to not be? I'm not a Christian anymore, and why I fell away was for completely separate reasons to this, but how would you explain that? Psychological insanity? What about the hundreds of animal species that have been observed to have homosexual behaviour? Are they not incapable of the thought process that humans do? They certainly aren't sinning and going to hell, are they? KneeVan, a Christian as well, believes that it is not a choice nor do many of my Christian friends. The evidence is simply overwhelming that it isn't. I've talked to plenty of them on another site and a lot of them said that they "became gay" at a point. They mean they hit the point where they start to find people sexually attractive, people don't just "Become gay" all of the sudden, that's absolutely ridiculous. I knew this one nigga who was dating a dude and then like two months later he was like "im not gay" and they broke up it was the funniest shit
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