1,388 posts
Discord: Swifter#9933
Clans: Swifter Server and Dragon's Den
Creator Points: 0
Favorite Level: Stalemate by Nox
Hardest Demon: Necropolis by iiiNeptuneiii
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Post by Swifter on Nov 21, 2019 15:40:39 GMT -5
So this is an interesting debate I think. I’ve heard different opinions about this comparison, and I’d like to hear yours! : ) Personally I think Stalemate is harder, but my opinion might not be very trustworthy since I’ve only done 58-100 (just did that today) and 40 on SuperSonic. I have beaten Stalemate however. Hopefully this will be interesting and not a blowout! Vids: Stalemate: youtu.be/nkWL0KfYEn4SuperSonic: youtu.be/RLntrz_sXuY~Swifter
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 9:12:54 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion but personally on 60hz I think Stalemate has a slight edge over supersonic. Might be the fact that I played supersonic for well over 2 years on and off but even looking at it today that gameplay just isn’t that hard.
On 144 supersonic is probably harder but I haven’t really gone back to play them yet
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143 posts
Discord: Bacon#5498
Creator Points: 0
Favorite Level: Leyak by EnZore or Acu by neigefeu
Hardest Demon: Falcon16 by Lieb and more
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Post by theunknownbacon on Nov 22, 2019 11:00:07 GMT -5
SuperSonic is longer and more varied in terms of gameplay, whereas Stalemate is mostly ship based. If you are on 60hz or bad at flying then Stalemate may be slightly harder. I would like to know if Windy Landscape is harder than either of these two.
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Post by Dragon on Nov 22, 2019 11:42:10 GMT -5
I think Supersonic is very slightly harder than Stalemate. It's not by a lot, so I can definitely see it going either way, but Supersonic has some pretty tough waves and ship parts thrown in there, while Stalemate is more memory based (though the ships in Stalemate are pretty hard too).
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1,388 posts
Discord: Swifter#9933
Clans: Swifter Server and Dragon's Den
Creator Points: 0
Favorite Level: Stalemate by Nox
Hardest Demon: Necropolis by iiiNeptuneiii
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Post by Swifter on Nov 22, 2019 14:57:11 GMT -5
SuperSonic is longer and more varied in terms of gameplay, whereas Stalemate is mostly ship based. If you are on 60hz or bad at flying then Stalemate may be slightly harder. I would like to know if Windy Landscape is harder than either of these two. WL is generally considered easier than both.
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Post by Luxi on Nov 22, 2019 15:23:24 GMT -5
I don't believe Supersonic has any hard parts apart from GBoy and the final part with the orbs and ship. I'm probably slightly biased but if I can get 42% on it without practice mode or anything then it can't be THAT hard. Stalemate has a lot of easy parts too but the hardest parts are all ship so on 60hz it's definitely harder than Supersonic.
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312 posts
Favorite Level: Traffic Trauma
Hardest Demon: Infrared
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Post by Cabbage on Nov 22, 2019 17:04:32 GMT -5
In my opinion it's definitely Supersonic. Other than the fact that Supersonic is rated insane demon now which should mean it's objectively harder, I have some of my own reasons based on experiences with both. Forgive me for typos and long texts.
Pre-drop:
They both start off pretty equal in difficulty, and perhaps stay that way until a quarter way through in both. The fast wave at 30% followed by Daddepro's slow ship all the way to the drop in Supersonic is much harder than the entire slow wave section in Stalemate, which leads up to its infamous 46% ufo drop.
Initial drop:
Stalemate starts off significantly harder in the drop, but the ufo seems to get progressively easier. Supersonic picks up in difficulty at the dual section, because the sheer amount of bugs in that part adds another element of difficulty. I once saw a GD streamer get to those duals maybe 5 times in only 15 minutes of gameplay but died to them like every single time. Also the transition at 66% is horrendous, and because of it I can confidently say Supersonic wins here.
Extended drop: (+72% in Supersonic and +64% in Stalemate)
Supersonic enters the extended drop territory with some of the easiest parts in the level, a very simple wave followed by a memory ball, nothing too bad. With Stalemate on the other hand, you're entering the hardest part in the level by far, the atrocious ship. The ship in Stalemate can be divided into 2 parts I believe, the easy up and down maneuvering and the extremely difficult straight flying, it's the latter which overall pushes the difficulty of the part(and the level) to a point where it's even being compared to Supersonic. Stalemate wins this round.
End parts:
The very last ship in Supersonic is tough, actually one of the harder parts in the level imo, and it's really easy to mess up there, if you hadn't already at the cube timings before it. Even if you practice this part a ton, the chances of dying to it aren't really eliminated, so yes that's pretty tragic. Stalemate finishes off with some memory ball and a dual ship which are kinda tricky, but with some practice these can be conquered. Overall I'd say Supersonic wins here by a small margin.
TL;DR, I tried both levels in practice and divided them into different sections to compare them on each one, turns out Supersonic is more difficult, which I kinda expected.
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1,388 posts
Discord: Swifter#9933
Clans: Swifter Server and Dragon's Den
Creator Points: 0
Favorite Level: Stalemate by Nox
Hardest Demon: Necropolis by iiiNeptuneiii
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Post by Swifter on Nov 22, 2019 18:47:32 GMT -5
I should probably explain my reasoning like Flint did so that the points can be better understood.
Pre-Drop: SuperSonic has a difficult start that can be conquered easily as it goes on. Stalemate stays mostly consistently hard. SuperSonic gets harder as it goes on whilie Stalemate slightly gets easier. I’d honestly rate Stalemate 4/10 and SuperSonic 3/10. The Stalemate wave is slightly harder than the start of SuperSonic’s pre drop and the ship of Stalemate is around the same difficulty as SuperSonic’s second half.
Drop: The UFO is slightly easier than the start of SuperSonic’s drop from what I can see (Wave-GBoy). However, Stalemate’s second ship is not only harder than GBoy-ending, it’s as hard as GBoy-100. The second ship is incredibly underrated in Stalemate. If it was as easy at the UFO, I’d have no doubt that Stalemate would be medium demon. Stalemate: 7/10, SuperSonic: 5/10.
Ending: The ship made up for the ending, but I’ll stay rate them. The ending of Stalemate is kinda tricky (87 and the final ship) and the ending of SuperSonic is only revolving around the final ship. However, everything else at the end of Stalemate is easy demon while SuperSonic is about medium demon. Stalemate: 1/10, SuperSonic: 2/10.
Final Results: Stalemate: 12/30 SuperSonic: 10/30
Very close, but SuperSonic just doesn’t have that insane demon part. 64 doesn’t even compare to the second ship btw, needed to cut that loose end. That’s my reasoning, hope it made sense.
Edit: Ik the dual is buggy, but buggy=/=difficulty. This is a common misconception, if something is hard, it has to be of one’s own skill, not whether or not the in game mechanics are passable. Also, in game ratings are not always trustworthy, since any rando can rate it despite their experience. If The Nightmare was rated extreme demon, would it really be extreme? And finally, practice mode is not a good judge of difficulty, that’s just a general rule of thumb.
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312 posts
Favorite Level: Traffic Trauma
Hardest Demon: Infrared
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Post by Cabbage on Nov 23, 2019 7:28:11 GMT -5
I should probably explain my reasoning like Flint did so that the points can be better understood. Pre-Drop: SuperSonic has a difficult start that can be conquered easily as it goes on. Stalemate stays mostly consistently hard. SuperSonic gets harder as it goes on whilie Stalemate slightly gets easier. I’d honestly rate Stalemate 4/10 and SuperSonic 3/10. The Stalemate wave is slightly harder than the start of SuperSonic’s pre drop and the ship of Stalemate is around the same difficulty as SuperSonic’s second half.Drop: The UFO is slightly easier than the start of SuperSonic’s drop from what I can see (Wave-GBoy). However, Stalemate’s second ship is not only harder than GBoy-ending, it’s as hard as GBoy-100. The second ship is incredibly underrated in Stalemate. If it was as easy at the UFO, I’d have no doubt that Stalemate would be medium demon. Stalemate: 7/10, SuperSonic: 5/10. Ending: The ship made up for the ending, but I’ll stay rate them. The ending of Stalemate is kinda tricky (87 and the final ship) and the ending of SuperSonic is only revolving around the final ship. However, everything else at the end of Stalemate is easy demon while SuperSonic is about medium demon. Stalemate: 1/10, SuperSonic: 2/10. Final Results: Stalemate: 12/30 SuperSonic: 10/30 Very close, but SuperSonic just doesn’t have that insane demon part. 64 doesn’t even compare to the second ship btw, needed to cut that loose end. That’s my reasoning, hope it made sense. Edit: Ik the dual is buggy, but buggy=/=difficulty. This is a common misconception, if something is hard, it has to be of one’s own skill, not whether or not the in game mechanics are passable. Also, in game ratings are not always trustworthy, since any rando can rate it despite their experience. If The Nightmare was rated extreme demon, would it really be extreme? And finally, practice mode is not a good judge of difficulty, that’s just a general rule of thumb. I did say they start out quite equal in difficulty before diverging at around 29% for Supersonic and 21% for Stalemate to be precise. From those percentages until the drops in each level, they change quite dramatically in difficulty. The slow wave in Stalemate is not harder than Supersonic's 30% wave + the slow tight ship, by any means. I can't understand why the first gets a 4/10 and the latter gets a 3/10, that seems way off. I am not including the second ship in the pre-drop comparison, I am comparing the levels as we progress through them, each section at a time.The rest I'd say is pretty accurate, concerning the drop and the ending. But I have 3 more points I'd like to add:
- Bugs still add to the overall difficulty, even though they don't technically require as much skill. They make the process of completing a level more infuriating and luck based, so yes that is another factor of difficulty right there. - With some exceptions, I believe the in-game ratings are a reliable way to judge the difficulty of levels. Apparently, the players using it accurately far outnumber the trolls, The Nightmare ever being rated extreme is very unlikely to happen. So if many players rated Supersonic an insane and it finally got rerated, that's a clear indication that many people thought it was underrated. - And finally, using practice mode is still better than judging a level's difficulty from watching a vid only. And I didn't just use auto checkpoints, I did genuinely attempt each section on its own. May not be as reliable as start positions but it should still do. Long texts again... sorry!
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1,388 posts
Discord: Swifter#9933
Clans: Swifter Server and Dragon's Den
Creator Points: 0
Favorite Level: Stalemate by Nox
Hardest Demon: Necropolis by iiiNeptuneiii
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Post by Swifter on Nov 23, 2019 12:54:47 GMT -5
I should probably explain my reasoning like Flint did so that the points can be better understood. Pre-Drop: SuperSonic has a difficult start that can be conquered easily as it goes on. Stalemate stays mostly consistently hard. SuperSonic gets harder as it goes on whilie Stalemate slightly gets easier. I’d honestly rate Stalemate 4/10 and SuperSonic 3/10. The Stalemate wave is slightly harder than the start of SuperSonic’s pre drop and the ship of Stalemate is around the same difficulty as SuperSonic’s second half.Drop: The UFO is slightly easier than the start of SuperSonic’s drop from what I can see (Wave-GBoy). However, Stalemate’s second ship is not only harder than GBoy-ending, it’s as hard as GBoy-100. The second ship is incredibly underrated in Stalemate. If it was as easy at the UFO, I’d have no doubt that Stalemate would be medium demon. Stalemate: 7/10, SuperSonic: 5/10. Ending: The ship made up for the ending, but I’ll stay rate them. The ending of Stalemate is kinda tricky (87 and the final ship) and the ending of SuperSonic is only revolving around the final ship. However, everything else at the end of Stalemate is easy demon while SuperSonic is about medium demon. Stalemate: 1/10, SuperSonic: 2/10. Final Results: Stalemate: 12/30 SuperSonic: 10/30 Very close, but SuperSonic just doesn’t have that insane demon part. 64 doesn’t even compare to the second ship btw, needed to cut that loose end. That’s my reasoning, hope it made sense. Edit: Ik the dual is buggy, but buggy=/=difficulty. This is a common misconception, if something is hard, it has to be of one’s own skill, not whether or not the in game mechanics are passable. Also, in game ratings are not always trustworthy, since any rando can rate it despite their experience. If The Nightmare was rated extreme demon, would it really be extreme? And finally, practice mode is not a good judge of difficulty, that’s just a general rule of thumb. I did say they start out quite equal in difficulty before diverging at around 29% for Supersonic and 21% for Stalemate to be precise. From those percentages until the drops in each level, they change quite dramatically in difficulty. The slow wave in Stalemate is not harder than Supersonic's 30% wave + the slow tight ship, by any means. I can't understand why the first gets a 4/10 and the latter gets a 3/10, that seems way off. I am not including the second ship in the pre-drop comparison, I am comparing the levels as we progress through them, each section at a time.The rest I'd say is pretty accurate, concerning the drop and the ending. But I have 3 more points I'd like to add:
- Bugs still add to the overall difficulty, even though they don't technically require as much skill. They make the process of completing a level more infuriating and luck based, so yes that is another factor of difficulty right there. - With some exceptions, I believe the in-game ratings are a reliable way to judge the difficulty of levels. Apparently, the players using it accurately far outnumber the trolls, The Nightmare ever being rated extreme is very unlikely to happen. So if many players rated Supersonic an insane and it finally got rerated, that's a clear indication that many people thought it was underrated. - And finally, using practice mode is still better than judging a level's difficulty from watching a vid only. And I didn't just use auto checkpoints, I did genuinely attempt each section on its own. May not be as reliable as start positions but it should still do. Long texts again... sorry! Concerning Predrops: Stalemate’s predrop is harder than SuperSonic’s predrop. The ship is harder than 0-Wave, and the wave is about even to the wave-Daddepro. That’s my reasoning there. Idk why everyone overrates the SuperSonic wave, it compares to the end of Stalemate in all honesty. Daddepro ships are pretty simple, the only hard part is the 40% jump. So the predrops (all of Stalemate and SuperSonic predrop) are uneven with Stalemate having the edge. Concerning In Game Ratings: You aren’t including people who honestly think it’s insane, the sheer amount of people that will overrate whatever gives them trouble alone is a factor. But about the random people. I’ve personally join in on this act if you want sources. People will see people having a hard time on the level and then try it and not get past the ship. They’ll rate it insane. The only reason Stalemate isn’t is because it’s not as played as SuperSonic in all honesty. Concerning Practice Mode: I mean, that’s better, but still, get significant progress, try normal mode, before you judge difficulty. Edit: Sorry, forgot about the bugs thing. Let’s have an example: You have a level that is a buggy level with only a jump pad that doesn’t always work... is this difficult? No, no skill is required, it’s just hope. The same goes for a non auto buggy part, it’s not your fault you died, so it’s not difficult.
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312 posts
Favorite Level: Traffic Trauma
Hardest Demon: Infrared
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Post by Cabbage on Nov 23, 2019 17:41:25 GMT -5
Well that is your own opinion, which means it is 100% factually correct and there's no way I can disprove it.
Windy Landscape is pretty overrated, Supersonic is not. It got changed to insane demon because that change was long overdue.
Another level, Dark Nebula, is even less popular than Stalemate, but it got rerated from hard demon to insane demon recently because the level features gameplay comparable to actual insane demons. Stalemate has a single part which resembles an insane demon, but the rest of the level has quite easier gameplay. If players wanted it to be rerated an insane demon they already would have by now.
Bugs make levels more luck based, meaning the chances of getting through them consistently is slim, meaning the chance of beating a buggy level on any given attempt is less than that of a non-buggy level, meaning it's actually more difficult to get from 0% to 100% on it.
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1,388 posts
Discord: Swifter#9933
Clans: Swifter Server and Dragon's Den
Creator Points: 0
Favorite Level: Stalemate by Nox
Hardest Demon: Necropolis by iiiNeptuneiii
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Post by Swifter on Nov 24, 2019 19:09:17 GMT -5
Well that is your own opinion, which means it is 100% factually correct and there's no way I can disprove it. Windy Landscape is pretty overrated, Supersonic is not. It got changed to insane demon because that change was long overdue. Another level, Dark Nebula, is even less popular than Stalemate, but it got rerated from hard demon to insane demon recently because the level features gameplay comparable to actual insane demons. Stalemate has a single part which resembles an insane demon, but the rest of the level has quite easier gameplay. If players wanted it to be rerated an insane demon they already would have by now. Bugs make levels more luck based, meaning the chances of getting through them consistently is slim, meaning the chance of beating a buggy level on any given attempt is less than that of a non-buggy level, meaning it's actually more difficult to get from 0% to 100% on it. This is still all presumed in practice mode though. And Dark Nebula probably deserved being insane demon. There is also the fact that almost everyone who’s beaten it agrees it’s hard from what I seen.
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Post by Spatdoepa on Nov 25, 2019 8:41:43 GMT -5
I think this is one of those cases where stalemate is harder for unexperienced players and supersonic is harder for experienced players, this might be hard to explain but I'll try. Stalemate has a lot of parts that require semi-tight wave timings and straight flying, both skills that you slowly train while playing levels. These parts are much harder for unexperienced players who have to develop new click paterns for these ship and wave parts, while experienced players can just do this on sight. Supersonic has a lot of parts where you simply have to know what to do, with the duals and bad transitions for example, these are just as hard for experienced as for unexperienced players.
Harder for experienced players means that the experienced player takes like 500 attempts on supersonic while only taking like 300 on stalemate, while for an unexperienced player they may take 4k for supersonic but 6k on stalemate.
Anonther example of harder for unexperienced players but easier for experienced players is Zafari.
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1,388 posts
Discord: Swifter#9933
Clans: Swifter Server and Dragon's Den
Creator Points: 0
Favorite Level: Stalemate by Nox
Hardest Demon: Necropolis by iiiNeptuneiii
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Post by Swifter on Nov 25, 2019 10:35:09 GMT -5
I think this is one of those cases where stalemate is harder for unexperienced players and supersonic is harder for experienced players, this might be hard to explain but I'll try. Stalemate has a lot of parts that require semi-tight wave timings and straight flying, both skills that you slowly train while playing levels. These parts are much harder for unexperienced players who have to develop new click paterns for these ship and wave parts, while experienced players can just do this on sight. Supersonic has a lot of parts where you simply have to know what to do, with the duals and bad transitions for example, these are just as hard for experienced as for unexperienced players. Harder for experienced players means that the experienced player takes like 500 attempts on supersonic while only taking like 300 on stalemate, while for an unexperienced player they may take 4k for supersonic but 6k on stalemate. Anonther example of harder for unexperienced players but easier for experienced players is Zafari. Not really, I still have trouble on the second Stalemate ship, but I’m doing relatively well on the SuperSonic counterpart (dual ball-100) since they are both the same difficulty. Stalemate does not get easier, it gets more consistent. SuperSonic doesn’t get easier nor consistent, which may be why you think that. Overall though, Stalemate is still harder in general for me.
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312 posts
Favorite Level: Traffic Trauma
Hardest Demon: Infrared
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Post by Cabbage on Nov 25, 2019 12:44:28 GMT -5
This is still all presumed in practice mode though. And Dark Nebula probably deserved being insane demon. There is also the fact that almost everyone who’s beaten it agrees it’s hard from what I seen. Fair enough. I guess the answer to this question isn't really straightforward, because sometimes you can only rank the difficulty of levels based on how good you are at them, which is also influenced by the game modes you're better at. Stalemate is still one of the more difficult hard demons in my opinion. Definitely something I'd like to do but can't because of my lacking ship skills :^P . Maybe it could go for an insane ranking, but most likely on the easier side of the spectrum.
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