312 posts
Favorite Level: Traffic Trauma
Hardest Demon: Infrared
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Post by Cabbage on Nov 9, 2019 14:00:26 GMT -5
I have a feeling this level is either unrecognized or underestimated. It's a combination of three extreme demons in one level.
It could easily rank as a top 20 in my opinion, or even a top 10 (but probs around 9 or 10).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 14:36:36 GMT -5
hard
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1,388 posts
Discord: Swifter#9933
Clans: Swifter Server and Dragon's Den
Creator Points: 0
Favorite Level: Stalemate by Nox
Hardest Demon: Necropolis by iiiNeptuneiii
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Post by Swifter on Nov 9, 2019 15:40:22 GMT -5
Let’s look at this through a logical perspective. BB+Aftermath is more than likely significantly easier than BL. Cataclysm is not even in the top 150 anymore, so there’s that.
Before you ask: “What about the length”, hold on. The length wouldn’t make it up too much. I have no definitive answer in this, since my best is a hard demon, lol. However if I were to guess, it’d be in the upper top 50 somewhere at most.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 18:02:48 GMT -5
Harder than Sonic Wave. Easier than Bloodlust. Best estimate I can give. People tend to say that the Bloodlust extension is about as hard as Aftermath, and with the rest being buffed Bloodbath, that puts it probably quite a bit lower. Cataclysm would hardly make up any of the difficulty in it as Cata's very easy compared to the other levels and there's people out there who can beat it very consistently.
I say harder than Sonic Wave personally because, having beaten the entire Trilogy and learned all of Sonic Wave + done a couple runs, I think it would definitely be much harder.
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Post by Atlantist on Nov 9, 2019 20:17:34 GMT -5
Just like to use this opportunity to point out that the demon list point system is unbalanced.
CC: 0 points, legacy list BB: 17.55 points AA: 13.04 points (yes i know it should be AM shut up)
CC+BB+AA = 0+17.55+13.04 = 30.59 points
The nearest level to 30.59 points is MadMansion, at 30.35 points
Therefore, according to the list, Aftercatabath is about as hard as MadMansion. Even if CC was worth points, it still wouldn't be in the top 50.
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1,388 posts
Discord: Swifter#9933
Clans: Swifter Server and Dragon's Den
Creator Points: 0
Favorite Level: Stalemate by Nox
Hardest Demon: Necropolis by iiiNeptuneiii
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Post by Swifter on Nov 10, 2019 21:48:42 GMT -5
Just like to use this opportunity to point out that the demon list point system is unbalanced.
CC: 0 points, legacy list BB: 17.55 points AA: 13.04 points (yes i know it should be AM shut up)
CC+BB+AA = 0+17.55+13.04 = 30.59 points
The nearest level to 30.59 points is MadMansion, at 30.35 points
Therefore, according to the list, Aftercatabath is about as hard as MadMansion. Even if CC was worth points, it still wouldn't be in the top 50.
Well yes, except you have to account for doing Cata, BB, and AM in that one shot to be able to beat it. It’s not beating each one individually.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2019 12:48:43 GMT -5
Just like to use this opportunity to point out that the demon list point system is unbalanced.
CC: 0 points, legacy list BB: 17.55 points AA: 13.04 points (yes i know it should be AM shut up)
CC+BB+AA = 0+17.55+13.04 = 30.59 points
The nearest level to 30.59 points is MadMansion, at 30.35 points
Therefore, according to the list, Aftercatabath is about as hard as MadMansion. Even if CC was worth points, it still wouldn't be in the top 50.
Compeltely incorrect. Take it this way; Doing bloodbath in 3 different runs, let’s say 0-34, 34-70 and 70-100. This is not hard to do. Is it as hard as doing Bloodbath though? Should it be worth just as much? Of COURSE not, because Combining all 3 runs into 0-100 is far, FAR harder than doing those runs individually.Aftercatabath wouldn’t give 30 points because doing Cataclysm, Bloodbath and Aftermath in 1 run is a fuck ton harder than MadMansion. Your logic here is INSANELY wrong.
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Post by Ezel on Nov 11, 2019 12:57:19 GMT -5
Just like to use this opportunity to point out that the demon list point system is unbalanced.
CC: 0 points, legacy list BB: 17.55 points AA: 13.04 points (yes i know it should be AM shut up)
CC+BB+AA = 0+17.55+13.04 = 30.59 points
The nearest level to 30.59 points is MadMansion, at 30.35 points
Therefore, according to the list, Aftercatabath is about as hard as MadMansion. Even if CC was worth points, it still wouldn't be in the top 50.
So if I'd combine 3 legacy demons, it'd be still legacy demon difficulty? Your point makes no sense.
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Post by Atlantist on Nov 14, 2019 20:44:00 GMT -5
my small intestine is my brain Compeltely incorrect. Take it this way; Doing bloodbath in 3 different runs, let’s say 0-34, 34-70 and 70-100. This is not hard to do. Is it as hard as doing Bloodbath though? Should it be worth just as much? Of COURSE not, because Combining all 3 runs into 0-100 is far, FAR harder than doing those runs individually.Aftercatabath wouldn’t give 30 points because doing Cataclysm, Bloodbath and Aftermath in 1 run is a fuck ton harder than MadMansion. Your logic here is INSANELY wrong. Alright then, let's multiply, since that seems to be more mathematically appropriate.
17.55 * 13.04 = 228.852
Ladies and gentlemen, we have our new number one demon.
So if I'd combine 3 legacy demons, it'd be still legacy demon difficulty? Your point makes no sense. Well, that's a separate issue altogether. But even so, that really just supports my point.
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Post by orecreeper on Nov 14, 2019 21:34:42 GMT -5
Just like to use this opportunity to point out that the demon list point system is unbalanced.
CC: 0 points, legacy list BB: 17.55 points AA: 13.04 points (yes i know it should be AM shut up)
CC+BB+AA = 0+17.55+13.04 = 30.59 points
The nearest level to 30.59 points is MadMansion, at 30.35 points
Therefore, according to the list, Aftercatabath is about as hard as MadMansion. Even if CC was worth points, it still wouldn't be in the top 50.
So if I use cuts to beat an extreme demon, then it's the same thing as beating the level in one run, since I'm still playing the entire level? And if I combine every legacy demon into one giant level, the level still won't be list worthy because 0xanything is still 0.
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Post by Bagley on Nov 14, 2019 21:47:34 GMT -5
Compeltely incorrect. Take it this way; Doing bloodbath in 3 different runs, let’s say 0-34, 34-70 and 70-100. This is not hard to do. Is it as hard as doing Bloodbath though? Should it be worth just as much? Of COURSE not, because Combining all 3 runs into 0-100 is far, FAR harder than doing those runs individually.Aftercatabath wouldn’t give 30 points because doing Cataclysm, Bloodbath and Aftermath in 1 run is a fuck ton harder than MadMansion. Your logic here is INSANELY wrong. Alright then, let's multiply, since that seems to be more mathematically appropriate.
17.55 * 13.04 = 228.852
Ladies and gentlemen, we have our new number one demon.
So if I'd combine 3 legacy demons, it'd be still legacy demon difficulty? Your point makes no sense. Well, that's a separate issue altogether. But even so, that really just supports my point. In theory that should work if the list points were correctly calculated, but that isn't the case, and I'll explain why below. I apologize in advance for all the mathsplaining, I'm just trying to clear up some confusion about the way that list points are theoretically calculated. You are correct that the probability of beating two levels back to back can be found by multiplying their individual probabilities together. For example, if I want to flip a coin and get heads AND roll a dice and get 6, the odds of that are 1/2 times 1/6, which is 1/12. The list points should ideally be inversely proportional to the likelihood of beating it on a given attempt, that is, if the probability of a player beating a level is P, the number of points that level should award is 1/P. This function is its own inverse, so if you have the number of list points, say L, you can calculate the probability by finding 1/L. Theoretically, no levels should award fewer than 1 point, because that would indicate a greater than 100% chance of beating it (auto levels would be exactly 1), and also when you multiply it with another level, it would actually decrease the total points. You certainly can't have any level with 0 points (which, incidentally, is how many are awarded by legacy demons), so in practice you would have to disregard any legacy demons when comparing levels. I guess it makes sense when comparing the top players that anything legacy and below would be considered a negligible contribution to the difficulty of a level. I suppose there really isn't a perfect system short of ascribing a number to every single rated level.
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Post by Dragon on Nov 14, 2019 22:44:39 GMT -5
Why are people using mathematics on an arbitrary system of list points to find out how hard a level is what the fuck
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1,388 posts
Discord: Swifter#9933
Clans: Swifter Server and Dragon's Den
Creator Points: 0
Favorite Level: Stalemate by Nox
Hardest Demon: Necropolis by iiiNeptuneiii
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Post by Swifter on Nov 14, 2019 23:09:22 GMT -5
Compeltely incorrect. Take it this way; Doing bloodbath in 3 different runs, let’s say 0-34, 34-70 and 70-100. This is not hard to do. Is it as hard as doing Bloodbath though? Should it be worth just as much? Of COURSE not, because Combining all 3 runs into 0-100 is far, FAR harder than doing those runs individually.Aftercatabath wouldn’t give 30 points because doing Cataclysm, Bloodbath and Aftermath in 1 run is a fuck ton harder than MadMansion. Your logic here is INSANELY wrong. Alright then, let's multiply, since that seems to be more mathematically appropriate.
17.55 * 13.04 = 228.852
Ladies and gentlemen, we have our new number one demon.
So if I'd combine 3 legacy demons, it'd be still legacy demon difficulty? Your point makes no sense. Well, that's a separate issue altogether. But even so, that really just supports my point. Ezel didn’t prove your point, he told you why it was wrong. Also multiplication doesn’t even make sense, just like adding them together doesn’t. They aren’t variables or numbers. Anyways, time to get to the main point. They way you are calculating the difficulty just doesn’t make sense, and since I can’t even beat it, I won’t even try to give my opinion, id rather leave it to someone else with the skill. The way you are deciding it can’t be based off of math, that just wouldn’t make any sense.
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Post by RTef on Nov 15, 2019 6:39:56 GMT -5
I have no idea why the Demon List Points system was even brought into this discussion in the first place. It is made for individual demons. Yes, doing Bloodbath, Aftermath and Cataclysm would give you the same amount of points as MadMansion, but these are all the levels combined! Multiplying the points is an even worse idea as it makes no sense from your formulas since the level would just be the equivalent to a legacy list level since Cataclysm has to be taken in account. You also need to take in accounts of length and consistency, not just difficulty.
Think of Aftercatabath as a graph. On the y-axis you have difficulty, and on the x-axis you have consistency. Now with the beginning of Cataclysm starting from the y-intercept there should be an increasing gradient since the level is increasing in length, making it take longer to get from one end to the other; therefore, more inconsistent. Now add Bloodbath onto the end of Cataclysm and an the gradient will increase much more since its way tougher to be consistent on a 4 minute level than just a 1 minute and 30 second level. Then add Aftermath onto that which decreases the gradient a little bit, as Aftermath is easier than Bloodbath. This is because the level is still increasing in length adding much more difficulty as well as making it much harder to get consistent at.
This is why the toughest levels on the list are either very inconsistent levels, such as Crimson Planet and extremely long levels, such as Zodiac and Bloodlust.
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Post by Bagley on Nov 15, 2019 9:44:20 GMT -5
I have no idea why the Demon List Points system was even brought into this discussion in the first place. It is made for individual demons. Yes, doing Bloodbath, Aftermath and Cataclysm would give you the same amount of points as MadMansion, but these are all the levels combined! Multiplying the points is an even worse idea as it makes no sense from your formulas since the level would just be the equivalent to a legacy list level since Cataclysm has to be taken in account. You also need to take in accounts of length and consistency, not just difficulty. Think of Aftercatabath as a graph. On the y-axis you have difficulty, and on the x-axis you have consistency. Now with the beginning of Cataclysm starting from the y-intercept there should be an increasing gradient since the level is increasing in length, making it take longer to get from one end to the other; therefore, more inconsistent. Now add Bloodbath onto the end of Cataclysm and an the gradient will increase much more since its way tougher to be consistent on a 4 minute level than just a 1 minute and 30 second level. Then add Aftermath onto that which decreases the gradient a little bit, as Aftermath is easier than Bloodbath. This is because the level is still increasing in length adding much more difficulty as well as making it much harder to get consistent at. This is why the toughest levels on the list are either very inconsistent levels, such as Crimson Planet and extremely long levels, such as Zodiac and Bloodlust. I'll list the salient points from my other post, basically he's right that multiplying the list points would make sense in an ideal world where the number of list points were proportional to this abstract idea of "difficulty", which is in turn inversely proportional to the likelihood of beating a level on a given attempt. Now you can get the probability of beating Aftercatabath from start to finish by multiplying the probabilities of the three levels that comprise it, so his idea works in theory but not in practice. This is because list points are much more top heavy than they should be, which makes sense given the whole purpose of the list existing in the first place which unfortunately doesn't lend itself well to these kinds of calculations. Now someone could ostensibly create a system (I would if I had the time) that quantifies the relative difficulty ascribed to list demons by the list mods and formulates a way to calculate the relative difficulty of levels that are a combination of several levels with those parameters, but again it wouldn't be particularly useful for determining the most skilled players which is the whole purpose of list points, and the current points system fits that purpose well.
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