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Post by Norbert GmD on Jan 7, 2019 12:39:22 GMT -5
I am strongly against illegal immigration. I believe illegal immigrants are criminals because illegal immigration isn't legal and anything that isn't legal is a crime. However I think the idea of a wall is outdated and won't work because people can use a ladder to climb over or dig under it. However I think the US should spend more on protecting it's borders to prevent the horrible attacks by illegal aliens.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 12:57:15 GMT -5
I am strongly against illegal immigration. I believe illegal immigrants are criminals because illegal immigration isn't legal and anything that isn't legal is a crime. However I think the idea of a wall is outdated and won't work because people can use a ladder to climb over or dig under it. However I think the US should spend more on protecting it's borders to prevent the horrible attacks by illegal aliens. I agree with you on illegal immigration, but I support a wall.
The thing I think most people are disillusioned about is the wall's purpose - most of them seem to think the wall's supposed to stop any immigrant trying to cross illegally, and that's that. However, I assume (and hope) that the government knows the wall won't be impenetrable - it's not going to be perfect, but in the way of defense walls are supposed to slow enemies down so the defenders can stop them, it's not a job for the wall alone. Having a wall that may or may not be penetrated is better than having no wall and having the border certainly being penetrated!
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Post by Norbert GmD on Jan 7, 2019 13:06:38 GMT -5
I am strongly against illegal immigration. I believe illegal immigrants are criminals because illegal immigration isn't legal and anything that isn't legal is a crime. However I think the idea of a wall is outdated and won't work because people can use a ladder to climb over or dig under it. However I think the US should spend more on protecting it's borders to prevent the horrible attacks by illegal aliens. I agree with you on illegal immigration, but I support a wall.
The thing I think most people are disillusioned about is the wall's purpose - most of them seem to think the wall's supposed to stop any immigrant trying to cross illegally, and that's that. However, I assume (and hope) that the government knows the wall won't be impenetrable - it's not going to be perfect, but in the way of defense walls are supposed to slow enemies down so the defenders can stop them, it's not a job for the wall alone. Having a wall that may or may not be penetrated is better than having no wall and having the border certainly being penetrated!
No the United States should be looking for the best option in terms of illegals stopped for the money spent. The Border Wall would cost billions and not stop very many at all in my opinion.
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Post by sheikahgd on Jan 7, 2019 18:36:00 GMT -5
No. Because is it keeping them out, or keeping us in?
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Post by S3rios on Jan 7, 2019 19:03:54 GMT -5
I am strongly against illegal immigration. I believe illegal immigrants are criminals because illegal immigration isn't legal and anything that isn't legal is a crime. However I think the idea of a wall is outdated and won't work because people can use a ladder to climb over or dig under it. However I think the US should spend more on protecting it's borders to prevent the horrible attacks by illegal aliens. I agree with you on illegal immigration, but I support a wall.
The thing I think most people are disillusioned about is the wall's purpose - most of them seem to think the wall's supposed to stop any immigrant trying to cross illegally, and that's that. However, I assume (and hope) that the government knows the wall won't be impenetrable - it's not going to be perfect, but in the way of defense walls are supposed to slow enemies down so the defenders can stop them, it's not a job for the wall alone. Having a wall that may or may not be penetrated is better than having no wall and having the border certainly being penetrated!
Even if your goal is better border security a wall is a terrible fucking idea. You'd be better putting 5 billion into machine gun turrets than you would be putting it into a wall. Even then though, you still wouldn't solve the problem of people coming on airplanes, which is how MOST people come to the country anyways. Here are some things you could do that would ACTUALLY stop illegal immigration: 1) You start to crack down on the corporations that hire illegal immigrants. The whole reason that immigrants come to the United States is because companies will hire them, and the reason companies will hire them is because they work at lower wages than legal workers. So, something you could do is start monitoring companies that do this. If immigrants can't get jobs, they'll stop coming. 2) You take the money you'd have spent on a wall and you use it to help Mexico become a better place. You help the Mexican government clear out the cartels. You find ways to weed out corruption in the Mexican government. If Mexico were a safe place to live, people wouldn't be leaving it for the US. Short term it'd definitely be costly, but long term we would get better trade deals with Mexico. We already get a lot of manufactured goods from Mexico like car parts, and if Mexico was doing better economically WE would also be doing better economically. 3) You legalize drugs. The cartels come to the United States because there's a drug market. Legalizing drugs takes the market out of the hands of gangs and puts it into the hands of honest businessmen who can be regulated. There are other benefits to having legal drugs that I can get into if needed but they aren't directly related to the conversation. We could do one or all of these things and it would be way more helpful for our economy than a wall. Or, we could do what economists say we should do and open our borders. I like capitalism a lot, and capitalism works best when there's free movement of labor. Immigrants coming into the country means that the labor pool is expanded. Immigrants tend to work for lower wages, and if we got rid of the minimum wage it would drive the price of labor downwards. Because these immigrants tend to be willing to work for lower wages than the native population, companies can expand their facilities and create more product for less money. The expansion of low-skilled labor means that more high-skilled managing jobs would open which could be filled by better educated people in the native population. The creation of more product means that companies can cut prices on the consumer end as well, which means that although low-skilled workers may be getting payed less, the products they buy will also be less expensive. Now, maybe you don't really like capitalism, in which case you probably don't like the idea of open borders. But from the perspective of a capitalist, like myself, my plan is the best way forward from an economic standpoint at the very least.
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Post by Gingie on Jan 7, 2019 19:17:00 GMT -5
I find the wall to be a double edged sword.
On one hand, it can employ thousands and prevent invasions, as well as be a sort of preventative measure against illegal immigration, by extension potentially preventing a crime.
On the other hand it's insanely expensive and the kind of resources necessary for it is dangerous to the world. The surrounded desert is at also at risk so y'know.
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Post by horizon on Jan 7, 2019 20:48:42 GMT -5
I believe that the wall is an extremely impractical way to go about it. I don't support illegal immigration, but there are most definitely better ways to keep illegal immigrants out of our country than a huge wall.
Even if the wall comes to fruition, someone will find a way to get over it, go under it, or bypass it completely. Our money is better spent on actual effective ways to suffocate illegal immigration.
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Post by VegetarianBacon on Jan 7, 2019 21:15:03 GMT -5
Wall supporters: do you support the fact that currently hundreds of thousands of people are currently out of work, some of which who are living paycheck to paycheck aren't even getting payed? Just because democrats don't want to fund a wall, is it ethical to shut down the government for this long with no end in sight? It's so selfish to be honest.
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Post by megaman9 on Jan 8, 2019 13:17:33 GMT -5
I agree with you on illegal immigration, but I support a wall.
The thing I think most people are disillusioned about is the wall's purpose - most of them seem to think the wall's supposed to stop any immigrant trying to cross illegally, and that's that. However, I assume (and hope) that the government knows the wall won't be impenetrable - it's not going to be perfect, but in the way of defense walls are supposed to slow enemies down so the defenders can stop them, it's not a job for the wall alone. Having a wall that may or may not be penetrated is better than having no wall and having the border certainly being penetrated!
Even if your goal is better border security a wall is a terrible fucking idea. You'd be better putting 5 billion into machine gun turrets than you would be putting it into a wall. Even then though, you still wouldn't solve the problem of people coming on airplanes, which is how MOST people come to the country anyways. Here are some things you could do that would ACTUALLY stop illegal immigration: 1) You start to crack down on the corporations that hire illegal immigrants. The whole reason that immigrants come to the United States is because companies will hire them, and the reason companies will hire them is because they work at lower wages than legal workers. So, something you could do is start monitoring companies that do this. If immigrants can't get jobs, they'll stop coming. 2) You take the money you'd have spent on a wall and you use it to help Mexico become a better place. You help the Mexican government clear out the cartels. You find ways to weed out corruption in the Mexican government. If Mexico were a safe place to live, people wouldn't be leaving it for the US. Short term it'd definitely be costly, but long term we would get better trade deals with Mexico. We already get a lot of manufactured goods from Mexico like car parts, and if Mexico was doing better economically WE would also be doing better economically. 3) You legalize drugs. The cartels come to the United States because there's a drug market. Legalizing drugs takes the market out of the hands of gangs and puts it into the hands of honest businessmen who can be regulated. There are other benefits to having legal drugs that I can get into if needed but they aren't directly related to the conversation. We could do one or all of these things and it would be way more helpful for our economy than a wall. Or, we could do what economists say we should do and open our borders. I like capitalism a lot, and capitalism works best when there's free movement of labor. Immigrants coming into the country means that the labor pool is expanded. Immigrants tend to work for lower wages, and if we got rid of the minimum wage it would drive the price of labor downwards. Because these immigrants tend to be willing to work for lower wages than the native population, companies can expand their facilities and create more product for less money. The expansion of low-skilled labor means that more high-skilled managing jobs would open which could be filled by better educated people in the native population. The creation of more product means that companies can cut prices on the consumer end as well, which means that although low-skilled workers may be getting payed less, the products they buy will also be less expensive. Now, maybe you don't really like capitalism, in which case you probably don't like the idea of open borders. But from the perspective of a capitalist, like myself, my plan is the best way forward from an economic standpoint at the very least. Point 2's not entirely accurate. A lot of illegal immigrants don't come from Mexico (heck, Mexico isn't even that awful of a place to live). They come from countries in Central/South America that have it much worse, places like El Salvador and Guatemala. To make it here, at least on land, they have to go through Mexico.
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Post by S3rios on Jan 8, 2019 14:54:42 GMT -5
Even if your goal is better border security a wall is a terrible fucking idea. You'd be better putting 5 billion into machine gun turrets than you would be putting it into a wall. Even then though, you still wouldn't solve the problem of people coming on airplanes, which is how MOST people come to the country anyways. Here are some things you could do that would ACTUALLY stop illegal immigration: 1) You start to crack down on the corporations that hire illegal immigrants. The whole reason that immigrants come to the United States is because companies will hire them, and the reason companies will hire them is because they work at lower wages than legal workers. So, something you could do is start monitoring companies that do this. If immigrants can't get jobs, they'll stop coming. 2) You take the money you'd have spent on a wall and you use it to help Mexico become a better place. You help the Mexican government clear out the cartels. You find ways to weed out corruption in the Mexican government. If Mexico were a safe place to live, people wouldn't be leaving it for the US. Short term it'd definitely be costly, but long term we would get better trade deals with Mexico. We already get a lot of manufactured goods from Mexico like car parts, and if Mexico was doing better economically WE would also be doing better economically. 3) You legalize drugs. The cartels come to the United States because there's a drug market. Legalizing drugs takes the market out of the hands of gangs and puts it into the hands of honest businessmen who can be regulated. There are other benefits to having legal drugs that I can get into if needed but they aren't directly related to the conversation. We could do one or all of these things and it would be way more helpful for our economy than a wall. Or, we could do what economists say we should do and open our borders. I like capitalism a lot, and capitalism works best when there's free movement of labor. Immigrants coming into the country means that the labor pool is expanded. Immigrants tend to work for lower wages, and if we got rid of the minimum wage it would drive the price of labor downwards. Because these immigrants tend to be willing to work for lower wages than the native population, companies can expand their facilities and create more product for less money. The expansion of low-skilled labor means that more high-skilled managing jobs would open which could be filled by better educated people in the native population. The creation of more product means that companies can cut prices on the consumer end as well, which means that although low-skilled workers may be getting payed less, the products they buy will also be less expensive. Now, maybe you don't really like capitalism, in which case you probably don't like the idea of open borders. But from the perspective of a capitalist, like myself, my plan is the best way forward from an economic standpoint at the very least. Point 2's not entirely accurate. A lot of illegal immigrants don't come from Mexico (heck, Mexico isn't even that awful of a place to live). They come from countries in Central/South America that have it much worse, places like El Salvador and Guatemala. To make it here, at least on land, they have to go through Mexico. Ok but if Mexico were a better place, then they’d just stop in Mexico instead of going all the way to the US. Then all the immigrants are MEXICO’s problem instead of ours.
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Post by VegetarianBacon on Jan 8, 2019 15:42:40 GMT -5
Point 2's not entirely accurate. A lot of illegal immigrants don't come from Mexico (heck, Mexico isn't even that awful of a place to live). They come from countries in Central/South America that have it much worse, places like El Salvador and Guatemala. To make it here, at least on land, they have to go through Mexico. Ok but if Mexico were a better place, then they’d just stop in Mexico instead of going all the way to the US. Then all the immigrants are MEXICO’s problem instead of ours. Yes. Mexico isn't as bad as Venezuela or Colombia or other Central/South American countries, but still, some parts are dangerous.
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Post by Retired moderator. on Jan 8, 2019 15:43:12 GMT -5
I think it's a horrific waste of money. That money could go to people struggling to pay hospital bills or medicine, but instead it's going to go towards an ineffective attempt at border security. On the topic of illegal immigration, I think that it's a waste to deport people living here for years if they aren't causing harm. I know many undocumented immigrants personally, and the vast majority are here because they were forced to, and they are some of the most humble, down to earth people I know. I think Trump fear mongers about immigration to a near xenophobic/racist degree, and this wasteful wall in the culmination of that fear.
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Post by S3rios on Jan 8, 2019 16:17:22 GMT -5
Ok but if Mexico were a better place, then they’d just stop in Mexico instead of going all the way to the US. Then all the immigrants are MEXICO’s problem instead of ours. Yes. Mexico isn't as bad as Venezuela or Colombia or other Central/South American countries, but still, some parts are dangerous. I think I may not have articulated myself correctly. I wasn't implying that Mexico was as bad as other Central American/South American countries. I was trying to say that, if Mexico was doing better than it is now, then all the illegal immigrants coming through Mexico to the US would probably just stop in Mexico.
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Post by pearl3scent on Jan 8, 2019 16:40:49 GMT -5
Just no.
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Post by Zendayo on Jan 8, 2019 18:22:01 GMT -5
i mean a wall worked for israel and even mexico's lower border so i cant say that it doesnt work.
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